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Benders and Bending Which bender is best? How do you use a bender? How do you calculate bends? Everything Bender related...


Benders and Bending Which bender is best? How do you use a bender? How do you calculate bends? Everything Bender related...

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  #21  
Old 11-10-2015, 10:14 PM
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Do em in one piece real cheap. Make a plate with holes. Like a steel peg board. Add a heavy duty pin. Bend around that pin by hand or cheater bar. Add another pin. Bend again. Repeat. Until you get all the way around. Tack weld the seam.
Maybe...
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  #22  
Old 11-10-2015, 10:49 PM
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I think the quantity warrants building a dedicated machine to make the crosses. I would make it operate manually to keep the cost down, hire some help to operate it. The cross could be made in half like Bandit showed but leaving a "tail", flip it around and form the other half out of the tail. It would be a very interesting project to make the machine to make the product.
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  #23  
Old 11-11-2015, 10:38 AM
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That style of press Jay posted is what I was thinking. That is really similar to a log splitter in operation... Since the bends are all the same degree/profile maybe one of these could be used as the driving mechanism. For $300 you could trash it when it when the job was complete.

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  #24  
Old 11-11-2015, 04:05 PM
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If I WAG 1-minute per bend and 500 complete assys.
Not counting cutting the blanks...
I have to ask just can you afford not to farm this out to somebody that is set up for this type of production?

E
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  #25  
Old 11-11-2015, 08:08 PM
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E-

For the last few years I have been trying to buy more and more equipment when I get a large job.

So far I have bought two large Hurco mills, two lathes, a NC ironworker, and a DoAll automatic saw, and then the new 5000 sf shop.

I am trying to figure out what to do. Build a press, or buy a press. I have the mills to do all the machining, but don't have the two months to do it.

If Somehow I get a hydraulic press up and running, then my shop will be able to fab stuff for others.

I was all ready to buy the one from JD2. With the indexer I was looking to spend 15,000 ish.

I know that is not a good answer, but for now that is all I have.


Steve
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  #26  
Old 11-11-2015, 11:51 PM
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You are bending 1" x 1/8", you can bend each bend in under 10 seconds by hand. You can bend each half with one set-up. So 12 bends, 120 seconds, 500 pieces, 17 hours. Just need a good manual system. After the project is done you have a couple manual benders left over to sell or re-purpose.
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  #27  
Old 11-12-2015, 12:00 AM
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I'm not understanding the press brake concept. How are you going to avoid crashing the machine when you do two consecutive 90s or as you close the cross shape? I think you need a rotary style of bender for this, not a press brake. Isn't the log splitter arrangement a press brake? Unless you are making it into a press form / stamp that makes multiple bends at once, I don't see how that would make this part, at least not all of it.
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  #28  
Old 11-12-2015, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrambled View Post
E-

For the last few years I have been trying to buy more and more equipment when I get a large job.

So far I have bought two large Hurco mills, two lathes, a NC ironworker, and a DoAll automatic saw, and then the new 5000 sf shop.

I am trying to figure out what to do. Build a press, or buy a press. I have the mills to do all the machining, but don't have the two months to do it.

If Somehow I get a hydraulic press up and running, then my shop will be able to fab stuff for others.

I was all ready to buy the one from JD2. With the indexer I was looking to spend 15,000 ish.

I know that is not a good answer, but for now that is all I have.


Steve

Good Answer!

E
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  #29  
Old 11-12-2015, 11:03 AM
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I'm not understanding the press brake concept. How are you going to avoid crashing the machine when you do two consecutive 90s or as you close the cross shape? I think you need a rotary style of bender for this, not a press brake. Isn't the log splitter arrangement a press brake? Unless you are making it into a press form / stamp that makes multiple bends at once, I don't see how that would make this part, at least not all of it.
On a Press Brake it is all in the tooling.
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  #30  
Old 11-12-2015, 11:47 AM
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On a Press Brake it is all in the tooling.
I genuinely want to understand. Are you talking about making a single bend for each press action or stamping a few bends on one tool? If a single bend per action, is the idea to add relief/clearance areas in the tooling for clearance and/or part removal?
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  #31  
Old 11-12-2015, 01:04 PM
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I genuinely want to understand. Are you talking about making a single bend for each press action or stamping a few bends on one tool? If a single bend per action, is the idea to add relief/clearance areas in the tooling for clearance and/or part removal?
The horizontal bender or a vertical bender with hanging the tooling off the end should eliminate machine collision issues. Goose shape style tooling would help with collisions into the tooling.
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  #32  
Old 11-12-2015, 02:09 PM
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Got it... all in the tooling. Perhaps he can develop tooling to make this on his Ironworker.

I think if it were my task, I would try to stamp each half in a single tool on the Ironworker, then make two welds to join them along the flats. Steve has all the tools to make a set of dies and I think it would be a relatively straightforward set of dies. What do you think?
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  #33  
Old 11-12-2015, 02:25 PM
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Got it... all in the tooling. Perhaps he can develop tooling to make this on his Ironworker.

I think if it were my task, I would try to stamp each half in a single tool on the Ironworker, then make two welds to join them along the flats. Steve has all the tools to make a set of dies and I think it would be a relatively straightforward set of dies. What do you think?
Stamping and have the material need to stretch to make the form is very difficult. Stamping that allows the material to drag into the die is the only way to go with this. May require at least a two step process, ie... first to curve up the 2 ends and the second stamp to form the center.

.
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  #34  
Old 11-12-2015, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBandit View Post
Got it... all in the tooling. Perhaps he can develop tooling to make this on his Ironworker.

I think if it were my task, I would try to stamp each half in a single tool on the Ironworker, then make two welds to join them along the flats. Steve has all the tools to make a set of dies and I think it would be a relatively straightforward set of dies. What do you think?
Multiple bends as drawn, is about the hardest thing there is to do. It could be done in a progressive die or by Hydroforming... but to make 1/2 of the cross in one hit; the geometry of the completed part is nearly impossible with out stretching the material.
Look at the 90's and think about getting all the sides of a right triangle and another the next 90 at the same time... I can see a Top Hat but not anymore bends then that in one hit.
This would be fun on a 4 slide.

E
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  #35  
Old 11-12-2015, 02:48 PM
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Here's another idea. How about making the part in different pieces (blue and red below) to reduce the number of welds and allow use of your Ironworker to do all the bends as press bends? This way there would be no closed shapes and no successive bends in the same direction. Here you would have four welds (circled in yellow) that you would have had to do anyway. And if you wanted to speed things up further, you could make some dies to do the "W" shape parts in one stroke.



I am assuming this would reduce the number of welds since you were already going to have to weld some of these stringer pieces; why not weld to bent corners and have more of the part formed as one piece? Of course you would want to have a decent jig for positioning everything for welding.
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  #36  
Old 11-12-2015, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by entropy View Post
Multiple bends as drawn, is about the hardest thing there is to do. It could be done in a progressive die or by Hydroforming... but to make 1/2 of the cross in one hit; the geometry of the completed part is nearly impossible with out stretching the material.
Look at the 90's and think about getting all the sides of a right triangle and another the next 90 at the same time... I can see a Top Hat but not anymore bends then that in one hit.
This would be fun on a 4 slide.

E
Thanks E for pointing this out. After I started thinking more about it, I agree it would need to be multiple actions. Nevermind!
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Old 11-12-2015, 02:59 PM
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BTW this whole thread reminds me of the quote (and it's variants) which is falsely credited to Abraham Lincoln, but nonetheless is a quote worth remembering

If I had five minutes to chop down a tree, Id spend the first three sharpening my axe.

An alternate I really like is:

Time spent in sharpening the axe may well be spared from swinging it.
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  #38  
Old 11-12-2015, 03:11 PM
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An alternate I really like is:
If I had five minutes to chop down a tree I'd use Explosives
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  #39  
Old 11-12-2015, 03:54 PM
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If I had five minutes to chop down a tree I'd use Explosives
Good point except in the case of a small tree.
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  #40  
Old 11-13-2015, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBandit View Post
Here's another idea. How about making the part in different pieces (blue and red below) to reduce the number of welds and allow use of your Ironworker to do all the bends as press bends? This way there would be no closed shapes and no successive bends in the same direction. Here you would have four welds (circled in yellow) that you would have had to do anyway. And if you wanted to speed things up further, you could make some dies to do the "W" shape parts in one stroke.


I am assuming this would reduce the number of welds since you were already going to have to weld some of these stringer pieces; why not weld to bent corners and have more of the part formed as one piece? Of course you would want to have a decent jig for positioning everything for welding.

Exactly... After watching those videos of the HP linked to above I was thinking the dies for the W's could be water jetted from 1.25" plate. A platen made to affix to the log splitter then the other die made to connect to the "ram" of the splitter. Using a stop rod like they did in the video you could knock each W oout pretty quick.

All this could be done with a real HP that he built, except those complex projects take allot of time where I am talking a couple days of fabbing.

Look at Jays rotary bender... Sorry the ball was on the tee.
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