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  #1  
Old 03-08-2015, 10:18 PM
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AgitatedPancake AgitatedPancake is offline
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4400 Buggy - Mid Engine LS and Cantilevers

Hey Hey guys! Last time I was around here posting, I was asking what direction you guys would take for your business if you could start over. The responses were fantastic and you have helped me shape the plans I have in progress right now!

But in that thread, I put up a pic or two of my current personal long-term build, which is my first time building a complete vehicle from the ground up. I decided if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it exactly how I want so I went big . Of course it's taking WAY longer than expected....which is actually expected haha. I started this project knowing I had no clue how long it would take, but I wasn't going to cut corners to save time. Heck I don't even have a drawn vision of what I wanted, I just sat down in front of the frame table until I decided where tubes should go.

Here's a quick breakdown of what I've got planned:
-Undecided LS-based powerplant - might add a little forced induction
-6l80E 6 speed automatic - want to attempt to replace paddle shift function with a rally style sequential shift lever. Don't know if it's been done but it might be as simple as actuating microswitches...
-242HD Transfer case - aluminum chain driven, light weight and low parasitic loss.
-Flipped ford 9" front axle
-Flipped high pinion 60 rear axle
-Cantilever suspension front and rear - roughly 1.6:1 ratio netting 20-22" wheel travel at the axles, with 2.5" coilovers.
-LOTS of roll bending, I've had this "american muscle car" theme stuck in my head since before I even touched a tube on this thing, so I'm seeing it through!

I have a LOT of pictures online so far for this thing, but let me see if I can create a decent summary without being overwhelming . As this is my first build, I am still pretty unfamiliar with some things so if you see something your curious about, or something I can improve on please tell me. I am more than willing to listen to those more experienced than I :).

So here's where all the madness started


Doing mockup with the flipped high pinion 60, looking at driveshaft clearance and link locations at full bump


Using scraps to look at shoulder harness and roof location, as well as cantilever mockup


Here's when the shape of the chassis finally started to click for me


Something like this...
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:26 PM
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AgitatedPancake AgitatedPancake is offline
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So I had the shape rolling around in my head, it was time to start collecting parts. Had to grab a handfull of Ford kingpin 60 hubs and spindles, plans were to use them on all 4 corners of the axles, as well as use them as the pivots for the cantilevers. Maybe overkill for the cantilever pivots, but it makes spares incredibly universal, and allows me to run up to a 1.5" 35 spline sway bar through the center of the cantilevers


Picked up a tweaked currie 9" housing with 3.25" 1/4" wall tubes, I'll be doing some relief cuts, straighten it back out with a true bar, then truss the heck out of it.


Jaz 22 gallon fuel cell and a few of the rod end's I'm using


Here's the first rear cantilever arm taking shape on the D60 hub with it's wheel flange cut off




With the connecting link in place, and a piece of exhaust tube showing the coilover location


Cut the HP60 apart in the horizontal bandsaw. Good ole lightweight 3.125" .500" axle tubes lol


Getting sleeved and extended


And here are the frame rails taking shape!
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  #3  
Old 03-08-2015, 10:31 PM
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AgitatedPancake AgitatedPancake is offline
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Then it really started to come together!






Then I put a tail on it


and rolled a mockup 40" tire


Here I had the windshield frame in place, and the hood lines getting mocked up


Then it came time to get the seats in place to make sure I was leaving enough room for everything


and managed to incorporate a structural backbone which I believe will help with rigidity




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Old 03-08-2015, 10:37 PM
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I then decided I didn't handle the roof lines as well as I really wanted, so I pulled the top half of the chassis back off and reworked it to be just how I wanted. Every primary tube around the drivers compartment is 2" .120 DOM, the rest of the exterior tubework is 1.75" .120 with the inner supporting structures being made of smaller and lighter wall thickness materials.




Then got the A pillar spreader and hood lines merged nicely on the door bar


And finally got to start the front fender lines!




So here I am with the front clip finally getting whipped into shape . I was really excited about how all of this was turning out! I have a little mockup headlight circle in place there on the left side of the pic




Then it was time to finally weld the newly modified rear axle together permenantly


and investigate the truss situation :)
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:44 PM
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1.25" heims for the lower control arms. All of the truss work is 1/8" plate, so I used bolt sleeves to make sure I don't have a problem with holes wallowing out.








Then I knew it needed speedholes for extra horsepower, so I did a little trimming








Here's the nekkid truss in all it's unskinned glory


And as of today, it's back under the chassis and fully linked! Huuuuuuge step for me, pumped me up after things had been dragging on for too long.



So that pretty much catches me back up to current, and I still have a LOT of work to do. So please, by all means, help me make sure this thing comes out working the way I'm hoping!!! Communities like this have so much great information contributed by friendly and willing people, I've learned most of what by know just by sitting back and reading thread after thread. Posting up like this is my way of repaying the favor, so thank you guys!
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  #6  
Old 03-09-2015, 10:13 AM
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F.S.F.W F.S.F.W is offline
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Looks awesome! I would have traded you a chevy 60 for your hp60 so you could have a hp rear though. I'm looking forward to seeing more progress! I remember trolling through your WJ build when I was building one for a friend. Looks like things are working out good for you!
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  #7  
Old 03-09-2015, 11:20 AM
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Been wondering when/if you would bring this build to the OFN.

TKS
E
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  #8  
Old 03-09-2015, 02:22 PM
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Is that a laser staging table your using for a chassis table? I always wondered how that would work, we have the same one at work.
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  #9  
Old 03-09-2015, 06:25 PM
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Nice and Different! Personally, I would steer clear of the box for a number of reasons, after a few guys here have struggled with them in off road settings.
Allison 1000 is a better choice, although technically rated to 5,000 RPM input, guys pass this all the time. Much easier to work with, far stronger, deeper 1st gear etc. I have bolted a 1000 to my LS2 for my TT project and it fits nice - even the starter fits!
I'm sure that you have it sorted out, and you have far more box build options in the US.
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  #10  
Old 03-10-2015, 12:03 AM
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AgitatedPancake AgitatedPancake is offline
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Haha yeah it was too long coming Entropy :). But the skillset over here is so diverse and unique, the input you guys give doesn't usually seem overly biased by the "standards" of any one industry. I still have a LOT of time to spend including skinning it and doing sheetmetal for the interior, I've been tempted to dabble in sheetmetal shaping or fiberglass work to handle some of those tasks hehe.

FSFW thank you man! I wanted the high pinion flipped back there so I was running on the correct side of the gearset, and pushing the pinion deeper into the inner bearing race versus running on the opposite side and pulling the pinion against the pinion nut under torque. Hopefully this will help the gearsets live without issue and get the driveshaft tucked up next to the engine. No denying the driveshaft does hang LOW as compared to the lower links though, I'll be building some protection for it.

Bullnerd, it's a 5'x11' chassis table, and each hole you see is tapped for 1/4-20 bolts. To say I'm lucky to have this opportunity is an overstatement :).

Bru - are you saying you've been hearing about issues with the 6L80E transmission? I am quite interested in anything you have to say on the subject, as they haven't become extremely common in offroad rigs over here yet. The few that have used them, seemed to have great success completeing KOH in (nearly?) stock form. Also, considering it's an automatic, the 4.027:1 first gear and .6676:1 overdrive give you one of the largest gear spreads out there. That first gear should make having a numerically-low crawl ratio be very manageable!

That Allison 1000 is something I know nothing about though, and will start my research now just to inform myself
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Old 03-10-2015, 12:13 AM
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F.S.F.W F.S.F.W is offline
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Ah that makes sense. When you start putting things in backwards and upside down you have to draw pictures with crayons or... Ooh those smelly markers! That's how things become clear to me.
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Old 03-14-2015, 11:30 AM
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AgitatedPancake AgitatedPancake is offline
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Lol! The mid engine definitely makes everything a little more interesting, and it's all a new experience to me, so it's going to be fun. I'm pretty excited to see how some of these experimental concepts turn out, and using a few things the way they're not intended. In particular, the fact that the rear axle is going to be powered off of the chain drive on the transfer case should be exciting hehe.

Spent the last few days getting the DD in order, and actually putting a few hours into the good ole WJ, whittling away at the 'round-tuit list, you know, the list of small items you've talked about doing for years, but just never quite got around to .
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Old 03-14-2015, 11:44 AM
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F.S.F.W F.S.F.W is offline
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what case are you running? That will be interesting for sure! Front wheel drive? Lol
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Old 03-14-2015, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgitatedPancake View Post
Lol! The midengine definitely makes everything a little more interesting, and it's all a new experience to me, so it's going to be fun. I'm pretty excited to see how some of these experimental concepts turn out, and using a few things the way they're not intended. In particular, the fact that the rear axle is going to be powered off of the chain drive on the transfer case should be exciting hehe.

Just be aware that the LS series has known oiling... "Opportunities" when facing the correct way.
There are and have been flat out problems with these engines facing bassakwards in U4 applications and at-least one on the street that I know of.
The street version went from the 'Semiwetsump' GM design to a Real Dry Sump but what the U4 people ended up with I don't know as I kinda quit paying attention: I think they were playing with the pan...?

E
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Last edited by entropy; 03-14-2015 at 07:10 PM. Reason: the letter "e"
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Old 03-14-2015, 08:02 PM
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FSFW it's a 242HD out of a jeep. I'll be running it with 6-planetary low reduction, wide chain, and 32 spline front and rear outputs so it's got everything running in it's favor, but I'm still asking a lot of it. I want to run the aluminum case as long as possible and get some baseline dyno runs if nothing else, but I am VERY curious about parasitic loss differences between these newer style OEM chain driven cases and gear cases like the 205 and atlas. I've heard the difference can be massive but no one seems to know for sure (or atleast those who do aren't eager to share), and want to find out for myself.

Thanks for the heads up E, and it's definitely an issue I will need to handle. I've heard a few guys with decent luck running the stock oil pain, but I want to run an aftermarket pan to get trap doors, I might go rear sump when I do that. I do plan on running a couple quart accumulator to save the engine in those times when the pickup does run dry though, so hopefully some combination of the two works out in keeping my engine alive .
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Old 03-14-2015, 08:43 PM
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F.S.F.W F.S.F.W is offline
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The 242 should be fine for the most part. I run a box4rocks 231/241 in my crawler and haven't had any problems with it that weren't my fault. Both cases do have 6 pinion planetaries though. I don't know how much different the 242 is but I can't imagine it's too much?
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Old 03-30-2015, 12:10 AM
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AgitatedPancake AgitatedPancake is offline
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Sorry I didn't get back to ya here, didn't have much else to show in the thread and got sidetracked . I run a 231/205 doubler I made outta 3/8" plate in my WJ and love it, but it weighs a ton and has a LOT of parasitic loss. Hoping to save on both of those, if the case has the strength to survive haha.

Doing some work on a Super Duty on 40's, so I had some tires to roll over to the chassis for fun. Blingin!


Also redid the windshield spreader to add some triangulation, and reinforce the cowl area that will soon hold the coil over mounts as well. 1.25" .095 tube for the new additions
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Old 03-30-2015, 12:33 AM
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F.S.F.W F.S.F.W is offline
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That's all you got done?!?!? Come on man I finally finished that samurai!








Just messin with ya man. It's lookin good!
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Old 03-30-2015, 12:44 AM
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AgitatedPancake AgitatedPancake is offline
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Haha the super duty was a surprise project, but I can't complain. It's getting a rear diff rebuild, balljoints, tie rod ends, and some TLC on it's traction bars, but it'll be out tomorrow or tues.

I do have to pull the chassis off the table here in the next few days though, which means I will be making some serious progress beforehand, so there will be some good updates!
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Old 03-30-2015, 12:50 AM
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F.S.F.W F.S.F.W is offline
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Those are the ones that I like doin. Ball joints suck but I'd still take it. Lookin forward to seeing this thing come together! You know EJS is coming up quick right?
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