Go Back OFN Forums > Shop and Tool Talk > Welders and Welding

Welders and Welding Which welder is best and the best way's to use them.


Welders and Welding Which welder is best and the best way's to use them.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 08-28-2017, 04:27 PM
Captainfab's Avatar
Captainfab Captainfab is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Coeur d'Alene Idaho
Posts: 2,738
The few housings I have narrowed, I have used Moser ends. When mounting rear disc brakes, what I have done is have a counter bore machined into the base bracket that accommodates the protruding bearing and also allows it to bolt up tight to the housing end. Moser actually has an instruction sheet for the 3rd Gen F-bodies that shows that same thing to utilize the factory rear disc brake caliper bracket.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-05-2017, 05:12 PM
INXS2's Avatar
INXS2 INXS2 is offline
Junior Fabricator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Mn
Posts: 11
When do you plan on narrowing the rear end? I'll be back in San Diego at the end of September and I've got a Mittler's Bros complete rear axle narrowing jig you can use. Do you have a welder that'll do 1/4" steel?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-05-2017, 05:47 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainfab View Post
The few housings I have narrowed, I have used Moser ends. When mounting rear disc brakes, what I have done is have a counter bore machined into the base bracket that accommodates the protruding bearing and also allows it to bolt up tight to the housing end. Moser actually has an instruction sheet for the 3rd Gen F-bodies that shows that same thing to utilize the factory rear disc brake caliper bracket.
Moser now offers a 7900FM ("Flush mount") end with a deeper bore so the bearing sits flush with the flange end, avoiding the need to counter-bore the brake bracket. But they don't recommend using it with the tapered bearing and that's what I'd like to use. After calling around, I think I am going to go with Strange stuff - they were very confident I wouldn't have sealing issues with their system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by INXS2 View Post
When do you plan on narrowing the rear end? I'll be back in San Diego at the end of September and I've got a Mittler's Bros complete rear axle narrowing jig you can use. Do you have a welder that'll do 1/4" steel?

I just cleaned up the rear this weekend and will start taking it apart this week. I want to confirm the axles are 30spline and from there my timeline is largely dependent on when I can get parts. I appreciate the offer to borrow your jig, but I'm also not too sure I could get it back to you in a timely fashion - things always seem to drag out with me and I have some conflicting vacation in early October.

I have a Millermatic 180. 1/4" is near the top end of it's ampacity, but it should be able to do it; according to Miller's specs it can do up to 5/16". I'm going to give it a shot on some scrap to see if it cuts the mustard. If not I may just tack it for mock-up and then take it to a local shop for finish welding.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-06-2017, 10:05 AM
Punk Steel's Avatar
Punk Steel Punk Steel is offline
Fabricator
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: across the pond on the jewel of the Atlantic.
Posts: 96
Just keep your puck tight boyo...



[IMG]puckinghell by mark punksteel, on Flickr[/IMG]
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-06-2017, 11:51 AM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
uh
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-18-2017, 01:39 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
Progress. Best part is getting my 7 year old son involved every chance I get!







We drug the housing out to the street for cleaning. A few rounds of degreaser and brushing took most of the grime off. It's not quite paint ready but I'm thinking I will get it blasted later.





I mocked up the brakes sans rotors. These are "LS1" brakes from an '02 Camaro. It looks like part of the caliper will sit above the leaf spring. The banjo fitting for the brake line is about 1/2" above the leaf spring perch. I think I will rotate the new housing ends slightly to make more clearance.



My son helped me remove the cross pin from the diff so we could take out the c-clips. He was pretty excited when we took the axles out. He even brought one of his friend's over to see what we'd been working on.



I took the carrier out with a prybar and the hammer. It certainly had some preload. I may have to make a case spreader to get it back in.









I had to get a 1-1/8" socket to remove the pinion. The pinion seal was leaking, although the bearings were still snug. One of the reasons I am happy to take this thing apart is to refresh all the seals.

Parts showed up. Strange H1143 housing ends for 3.15 Ford bearings with GM pattern.



I also got a set of alignment fixture bushings from Lead Mine Products (they are on eBay). I also got a 3ft length of turned ground polished (TGP) 1-1/4" bar. Straightness tolerance is 0.002in/ft and diameter is -0.001 to -0.0005. I called around and could not get a better price locally, so I bought it through McMaster. 3ft is not enough to span the whole housing; my plan is to do one side then slide it over to do the other.





I took a series of measurements on the housing. The flange-to-flange width was 54-3/8". I measured the distances from the flanges to the center section also in case I need them.



The original Nova width WMS-to-WMS width was 60-1/4". I have decided to take off 1" per side, resulting in a target WMS-to-WMS of 58-1/4. After a bit of conversation with Strange, I determined to get this width I would need a flange-to-flange distance of 52.27. That is calculated as follows:

WMS width = housing flange width + 2 * axle offset + 2* rotor thickness
WMS width = 52.27 + 2.74*2 +1/4*2
WMS width = 58-1/4"

So to get there I need to remove (54.375-52.27)÷2=1.0525in from each side. I also need to account for the width of the housing end itself which is 1.300in. So from each side I need to take off 1.0525+1.3=2.3525. Round numbers that is 2-3/8". For math I like to work in exact numbers up to the point of measurement, then I can round to the nearest 1/32nd.

I used my trusty tape measure and calibrated eyecrometer to get a hose clamp spaced evenly from the flange all the way around.



The hose clamp made a great guide for my high-precision cut-off wheel.





And here is where I'm at after grinding a ~45deg bevel around. The bevel goes about 2/3 the thickness of the housing.



My plan is to tack this side into place with four equal-spaced tacks, then repeat the cutting/fitment/tack process for the other side. The axles are on order from Strange and I want to mock them up and check overall width before I burn everything in with final welds. I would weld 1/4 way around at a time. I'm not sure if I should let the welds cool in between or if I should go immediately to the opposite side - to me it seems like doing everything while it's hot would be best so it doesn't tweak one direction during cooling and then get set solidly there by the next weld. Thoughts?

*EDIT* Here is what someone suggested on another forum and basically what I was thinking:

Quote:
. I would tack it in 4 locations, 12, 6, 9, and 3 o’clock Feather both sides of each tack. Then weld from 12 to 3 then 9 to 6 o’clock, feather each start and stop, then fill in the gaps. If you stop, chances are the weld will pull everything out of alignment.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.

Last edited by TheBandit; 09-18-2017 at 02:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-18-2017, 01:53 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
I also want to share this video showing the fit of the alignment fixture. I measured about 0.025in of movement at the housing end with everything fixtured. This seems to be mainly due to clearance betweem the shaft and the carrier fixture bushings. The housing end bushings fit very snuggly into both the ends and the alignment bar, but the carrier bushings have a slight clearance which gets magnified by the length of the alignment bar.


https://youtu.be/fmGlVE9xYVk


Here is what I measured:
Turned ground polished bar: 1.249in
Left carrier bushing ID: 1.254in
Right carrier bushing ID: 1.252in
Left clearance calculated/measured: 0.005 / 0.005
Right clearance calculated/measured: 0.003 / 0.002
Housing end movement: 0.025in

I contacted Lead Mine Products with the video above and they offered to send a set of replacement bushings. So far very happy with how quickly they respond.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.

Last edited by TheBandit; 09-19-2017 at 02:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-18-2017, 03:11 PM
INXS2's Avatar
INXS2 INXS2 is offline
Junior Fabricator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Mn
Posts: 11
I'd go at least 4 tacks, 6 or 8 would be better. Don't let it cool, do the next weld 180 degrees from the first and so on. The weld shrinks to the hot side. After welding complete, let it cool naturally. If your center bar doesn't slide out easily then you can heat the whole weld (all the way around) with a torch and let it cool. If there are other brackets that need to be welded on, do them before the bearing supports. Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-06-2017, 01:11 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
Thanks everyone for the advice. I finally got back to this after a crazy month of travel, work, and hosting a Halloween bash. I like to over-prepare and under execute.

One of the challenges with this was holding the housing in positions suitable for welding. I drug out my welding table to get things at a suitable working height and I placed the housing on jack stands. I found that when rotating the housings on the jack stands, sometimes it wanted to walk off one side or the other so if you're doing this be careful not the roll your housing off the table and onto your foot. I used a length of scrap wood as a prop against the pinion area of the housing to hold it in the 90 and -90 degree positions while I relied on friction to keep it in the pinion up position (little sketchy) and gravity to keep it down. Per advice above, I clamped the alignment bushing to the housing end using a pair of vice grips before tacking. I decided on four tacks; first and second tacks 180 degrees apart. At this point the housing end has to be clocked in the desired position, which I accomplished by matchmarking using an electronic angle finder against the original uncut flange on the opposite side.



Once it was tacked I removed the vice grips and was ready to do the finish welding. Although I adjusted the machine by welding on some scrap 1/4", I found on my first bead I had the machine too running a bit too hot, so I dialed it down and continued after the first bead. I moved as quickly as I could to rotate/reposition the housing between welds to minimize time for cooling/distortion. I am admittedly not the best welder!



Once the first end was on, I measured and cut off the opposite end then used the angle finder to match clocking with the other side.









My target flange-to-flange width was 52-1/4 and I was happy to see I got within 1/16th of that.





After welding, I found the alignment bar still slid easily through the alignment bushings so I think I am in good shape.

I gotta say this was a really fun project. Hopefully I still feel that way when I get to reassembly Thanks to everyone who offered advice and encouragement.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-15-2017, 04:27 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
Does anyone have suggestions on how to leak test these welds? I don't want to find out later that this thing seeps oil through a pinhole or something. I was thinking spray them with soapy water and somehow pressurize the housing a bit, similar to how I leak tested my fuel tank, but I would need to somewhat seal the housing to do that. I was thinking maybe I could stuff some foam balls into the tube to seal it and somehow adapt shop air to the flange, but I may end up creating a foam ball shooter in the process haha.

Also, I am surprised nobody's calling out my crappy welding. Crickets.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11-15-2017, 05:37 PM
ScooteK's Avatar
ScooteK ScooteK is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: southern california
Posts: 1,458
Needs more triangulation.

Look at the HAZ. You have bad cold areas from your starts and stops. No good. Grind em out and fix it. Lots of stress in this area.

Needs more triangulation.!!

To much under cutting. Stress risers.

Some spots did not wet out good.

Last edited by ScooteK; 11-15-2017 at 05:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-15-2017, 06:31 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
LOL how much of that is sincere?
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:24 PM
dean's Avatar
dean dean is offline
Fabricator
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 70
i'm far from a expert welder,but,i'd not be happy with the starts and stops.
by the haz it looks very cold.
other than that i agree with the above.
more triangles and i'd absolutley lower the air pressure in your tires.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-15-2017, 11:16 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:47 AM
ScooteK's Avatar
ScooteK ScooteK is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: southern california
Posts: 1,458
Clint, your a good man. I say it truly as a friend. I only think of your family riding in it. If I was taking my daughter out for a ride, I would not be able to question a single part of the vehicle. By your comments, I believe that you question it. It may be fine, but know it's fine. In one pic it does look under cut. In another it looks cold at the start/stop location. One pic looks like it did not wet out. Maybe because the new piece was not cleaned enough of its coating. Maybe you favored the other side during the weld. Bright and shiny prep is a must. One of the pics looks like a great run that's strong.

Get more opinions before moving forward.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:27 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
Andy thank you for the kind feedback and helping me separate what was kidding (i.e. more triangulation!) from what the real concerns are. I know what you are saying about having kids in the car - there is no reason to risk anyone's lives over a deficient weld and that goes for the driver, passengers and everyone else on the roads that I drive. I agree point by point with what you're saying - some under cut, cold areas at start and stop based on the HAZ, lack of wet-out in a number of areas, and also probably should have removed the coating on the OD of the housing end (I removed it from the face that butted into the housing and didn't think the weld would end up that high). My assessment before replies was that the welds were still acceptable from a strength/reliability perspective, but I will attempt to calculate a safety factor before I go further.

I value your opinion and certainly welcome the opinions of others. If these welds are likely to fail then I most certainly want to make them right. But I also don't want to risk warping the housing or making things worse trying to redo them if they are likely to hold up fine as is.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:14 PM
entropy's Avatar
entropy entropy is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 95-miles from the center of Oregon.
Posts: 8,329
I have refrained from commenting because I suspect you know what I have to say... This feels a bit like piling on... THAT is not my intent!

I recently spent a dumb amount of time cutting out welds in critical parts to get acceptable welds. I know that my welds are now sound, but to get there I cut one of them apart several times before I accepted my results.

Get the carbide burr out and do what you know you need to do.


E
__________________
When did empirical knowledge get replaced by a theoretical education?

Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:52 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy View Post
I have refrained from commenting because I suspect you know what I have to say... This feels a bit like piling on... THAT is not my intent!
Please don't hold back or assume I know what your comments would be. I know I don't always take your advice, but I always value it. Having more voices in this conversation helps me make informed decisions.

My main concerns with reworking this are (1) I'm not sure I would get a much better result and (2) I currently have good alignment and correct overall width, so I don't want to screw that up.

For #1 maybe I need to get the housing on wheels so I can rotate it and make a continuous weld. I might also need to try cranking up the heat some and/or go from 0.030 to 0.035. I tried 0.035 on some scrap 1/4" and it just didn't seem like it was welding as well as the 0.030 even when I turned up the voltage. I don't know if that's a limitation of my machine or a technique issue. What I saw welding scrap 1/4" with 0.035 was that it looked like the weld just piled up without wet-out. I upped voltage and dropped wire and travel speed up to the point that I started getting burnback and it didn't seem to get better. What should I try to get a better weld?

For #2 would it make sense to grind the weld down just to the OD of the housing tube, forming a 90 with the housing end that I could add a fillet pass over? That would leave the existing root weld weld all the way around to keep it positioned. Then I would add a new bead on top that forms a fillet between the OD of the tube and the side of the housing end.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.

Last edited by TheBandit; 11-17-2017 at 04:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old Yesterday, 05:11 AM
rdn2blazer's Avatar
rdn2blazer rdn2blazer is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 772
Hay Clint, haven’t been around in some time. Just a few comments/suggestions. If you can setup a rotation weld fixture it would help. Welding 1/4 diameter at a time gives you more cold start and stop points then prefered. And although evenly tacked in place with a good 6/8 tacks it still wants t naturally heat draw to one side as a good hot weld is started. Pre-heat your weld zone if possible would help as well. As long as nothing shifts or moves around on you with in a reasonable acceptable limit. Just my .02 cents for what its worth. Happy to see your boy involved. Thats awesome. Glad to see you are still cranking away at your Nova.


Rob
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Template-Modifications by TMS
Copyright ©2012, Offroad Fabrication Network