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Benders and Bending Which bender is best? How do you use a bender? How do you calculate bends? Everything Bender related...


Benders and Bending Which bender is best? How do you use a bender? How do you calculate bends? Everything Bender related...

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  #1  
Old 01-22-2007, 04:26 PM
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traxman25 traxman25 is offline
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JD2 M3 Hydro conversion, my take.

Well I was going along just happy and fine with my manual model 3, then one day while in a hurry I had to bend a lot of tubing, any my arms were starting to get tired. I finally decided that I'm just sick of pulling on this lever, even though it's a great work out. I can't afford the CNC machine I want, nor do I have a spare inch to put it in, so I ordered up some new toys.

What I got: a 1 hp 2000 psi peak power pack, a 2 way valve, a 2.25x20" double acting ram, hoses and various fittings. I've been working late at night on figuring out how to mount it all. I like the way my bender is set up now and didn't want to go having to build a new stand and all that garbage. It's also significantly more efficient and less stressful on all of the equipment, but more so the arms, to mount the ram like the actual manufactured kits are. With that in mind I pulled the bender apart and brought the arms inside and started measuring and drawing things up. And here's what I came up with. The one thing, other than all the pins, that's not show in the drawing is a strap that will go around the end of the ram body near where the main rod exits. This will keep the ram aligned with the swinging mount. Otherwise the ram would just push away from the mount and it wouldn't bend a limp piece of spaghetti. This is replicated with a distance mate in SW at the moment.


The one problem with running a lower pressure system with a larger ram is that I now need to make the die arms for the bender 3" longer. Shorter may be doable, but 3 inches makes for a really nice fit of all the components. I did at first figure out that I could change a couple of things on the arms I have, and add a 1 inch thick block, but then at full extension the ram hit the arm, so I decided I didn't feel like making it kind of hack like that. I've got the raw materials on order and I'll be spending some time in the machine shop here at school later this week or early next week. I'll try to convince my busted ass camera to work and get some detailed photos of the build once it gets going.
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Last edited by traxman25; 01-22-2007 at 04:30 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2007, 05:46 PM
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Have you considered a trunnion mounted cylinder? It would greatly simplify your setup.
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Old 01-22-2007, 06:13 PM
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Yeah I see what you mean, hadn't seem rams like that before (quick google search turned up some). I doubt I'll change it now though, I already have the ram.
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Old 01-22-2007, 10:46 PM
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Interesting. I like the way that operates. So your main arms that hold the follower die pivot also!! And you'll just affix the end of the ram to the plate with some bracket so it stays parallel??
I don't think I have seen one like this yet. I am eager to see it completed.--Grant
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Old 01-23-2007, 12:24 AM
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No, the main arms are fixed to the stand like normal and the ram pivots, at least that's the way it'll be built. Yes the ram and ram mount bracket will remain parallel through another brace not shown. It'll be simple enough I won't need to go to the machine shop for it, so I probably won't draw it out.
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:17 PM
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It looks like you will not have much movement of the swing arm before the ram hits the frame, which will make you re-pin more often. Is there a reason you do not want to do it the way that everyone else has theirs that works well?
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:37 PM
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Don't see where you are seeing the ram hitting the frame, it all clears through out the whole range of motion. I will be able to get over 60 degrees for sure, and I think something more along the line of 70-85 depending on which size die is being used. These frames were not designed for this kind of single stroke usage as it is, so I don't have a bit of trouble with that range of motion.

I do not want to build like everyone else for several reasons. First, everyone else does it that way, second I don't have room for a new stand/cart style, they are much longer and bulkier than the way it is set up now. They also create absolutely horrid pressure angles and greatly increase the stresses on the main frame and swing arm, and require a larger ram or high pressures to get even close to the same results than I'll be getting with this set up.

I've been dealing with customer's projects so far this week. I need to order the steel tomorrow and maybe pick it up Thursday. Spend some time in the machine shop Friday, or next week and then it'll be up and running.
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Old 01-24-2007, 03:43 AM
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Very Nice!
How, were, are the lines going to run that feed that thing?
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Old 01-24-2007, 10:27 AM
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My bender started out manual and I didn't like it after one bend but had already built the mount to the floor and wanted to use waht I had and not built something huge. I started out with that style in mind and ended up going with a rigid mount on the ram. I'm using a 2.5"x24" tractor supply ram. I sleeved a piece of 2x3x.25 box to fit the mounting bolts an just put an anchor in the back for the ram. So fareverything has worked great. I've been bending 1.75x.120 DOM.I like your setup but was unsure how to make the arm longer and strong enough where the ram hooks on the bender arm. Shay
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scootek View Post
Very Nice!
How, were, are the lines going to run that feed that thing?

Good question... LOL. I'm not EXACTLY sure, but my plan is to mount the valve on the main bender frame, probably build a bracket that bolts on and holds the valve off to the side a bit. The ram hoses have swivles on both ends, and the pump hoses will have a swivle on one end. Shouldn't be too big a deal.

Shay,
I thought about something like that but my bender sits right in the middle of the shop, a small shop at that (I've only got 400 sq ft here) so it's constant traffic around the thing. Small and collapsable is the name of the game here.

Just ordered the raw materials, $57.00 Pick it up Thursday, and get to work!
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Old 02-07-2007, 03:38 AM
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Anymore on this yet? I have been looking at doing this on my bender.
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Old 02-07-2007, 12:04 PM
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Hydro Conversion

I like the design Traxman. I never liked the idea of the ram being almost 90deg to the bending dies. Your idea pretty much makes things parallel. Very nice. I am interested in seeing the method you have come up with to pivot the ram as the bend progresses. Hope to see more drawings or maybe even a finished product. One question though, when the bend starts to happen and the ram pivots, how far to you estimate it will pivot out of parallel?
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Old 02-22-2007, 02:03 AM
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Hey guys I finally have an update on this thing. It works great!

The update took so long because I had to order some new hoses and see just how well it would run. At first I had adapted up from the 1/4 inch pump outputs to 10 feet of 1/2 inch hose to the valve and 3/8 x 18 inch hose from the valve to the ram. This worked ok but was slow and jerky. I needed to get a better method of connecting the pump to the valve, and didn't need 10 feet of hose so with the advice of a friend who makes hydraulic hoses I ordered up some 1/4, and it totally changed how this thing reacts! It bends very smoothly, and quickly too.

I'm at about 30-45 seconds for a 90 because I do have to repin. I designed the system expecting to repin before I got to 90, for some reason I talked about above. Currently I'm getting to 68 sprung before the ram maxes out, and I normally don't push it that far even.

When I redid the hoses I also added quick disconnects to the pump lines, and a pressure gauge to the pump output hose. Bending 1.75 DOM I'm about about 925 PSI when the ram has the worst pressure angle (just short of fully extended). The QDs are just for ease of movement if I ever have to move the thing around. I am still going to look for a good way to mount the pump to my stand, although it does not jump or shake around on the floor as it is.

Another thing you may notice and not like is the way I kept the ram against the swinging arm. I was not really excited about the clamps position at first, fearing how much it may push on the housing, but it was pretty much the easiest option I had and when I was working on it at 11:30 pm I was all about easy and getting done, so after cycling the system and holding it back by hand I decided it would be fine. Now believe it or not the ram actually almost holds itself back against the swing arm. There is about 3/16 of an inch of play between the swing arm, the ram, and the bracket. The ram has been hanging out in the same place from day one and is not pushing heavily against the clamp/bracket.

So far I'm happy with it, now lets just see how long the main frame arms last....
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Old 02-22-2007, 12:11 PM
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I do like the design!! One question, you have a "retaining" strap that you use in order to keep the ram from seperating so-to-speak. Basically to keep it parallel with the mounting system.
Is this strap going to deform the ram over time?? Those long rods on the ram seem like they would be bent and possible cause deformation with repeated use??
I do like it overall though!!---Grant
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Old 02-22-2007, 01:07 PM
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Well done traxman! I like the new take on a hydro conversion. Sorry you didn't know about trunnion mounted cylinders though; that woulda saved you some material and time! You mentioned you're not sure how long the arms will last. Personally I don't think you'll have any problems since your ram's orientation doesn't put any more stress on the arms than the mechanical ratchet system would. Unless you are bending stronger materials, you should be fine.

I find it odd that you mounted your valve to the moving cylinder arm. If you plan to keep it that way, you have the oportunity to use hardline between the valve and cylinder. Or if you move it to a fixed location (the stand or backing block arm), you could run hardline from the pump to the valve. As you found out, it helps to have as little softline as possible. If you need any lines bent and flared, let me know. I have the proper flare and bending tools to do it.

jackalope, that strap should have very little loading if any. It's merely performing a balancing act while the main loading goes straight through the cylinder. Shouldn't be an issue!
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Old 02-22-2007, 04:27 PM
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Grant, The ram really just floats in there, it honestly isn't touching the U strap at all, and also isn't touching the frame either. It doesn't really even rest it's own weight on the strap because the clevis on the piston end of the ram sits on the pivot arms. Any force that the strap may see could very easily be held back by hand if the strap wasn't there.

Optimally the strap should be at the end of the ram on the cap, but it doesn't fit because of the main frame spacing, and I did not want to weld the strap.

Bandit, Thank you for the offer! I'll consider it. I know it's a little goofy of a place, but it's the best place I could come up with to mount the valve and still keep it out of the way of the main bending operations. I actually at first had it mounted on the back side of the swing arm, so it wasn't over the ram but over the tubing. This caused issues with the plain of bend locater so I moved it to the other side.

Also I'm not really sure that at trunnion would have been all that good of a choice either. with the 2.5 inch ram, there is only about .25" of space between the main bender frame (this is why the U strap is where it's at, it doesn't fit inside the frame rails like it would have to to be positioned at the end of the ram). You also can't replace the rear bolt with the ram trunnions because both bolts are needed to keep the frame stable. This leaves you having to somehow fit new piece between the frame and the ram with no room to play with. I guess I could have made new main frame arms instead of the pivot arms, but there's a lot of work there too. I'm sure it could be done though.
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Old 02-23-2007, 02:25 AM
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Nice setup!!
What wall thickness were you using for the 1.75" tubing @ 924psi?
What is the stroke on your 2.5" ram?

I am working on something similar. One idea I had was was using a ram with an extended length rod so the trunnion (pivot) could be placed forward, basically at the rod only. Then the cylinder's tubing body would be outside of the arms.
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Old 02-24-2007, 11:58 AM
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Oh sorry, forgot to post that. I'm bending 1.75x.120 DOM at just over 900 psi.

I was doing 1.5x.120 DOM and HREW last night and it wasn't working very hard. I didn't really get a chance to look at the gauge closely (small bends and this thing moves fast) but from a couple of glances it looked like around 550 or 600, maybe a little higher towards full extension. I did bend up a bunch of 90 degree pieces (forgot to look at the gauge while I was doing that), using a back stop I made for the die I was loading, bending to 90, unloading and returning the die in 52 seconds. A whole lot better than the several minutes it would have taken me to just pull that bend through before!

The ram is a 2.5x20. Also last night I moved the ram to the inside bolt on the benders pressure arm and that worked out pretty well. The ram's swing arm just barely clears the plane of bend finder I have, and I was trying to move fast last night, so I swung it out of the way. I think I'm going to add a new hole to the pressure arm so I can move the ram in a little bit, but not quite that far. It starts to stick out a lot at the inside position. However that is proff that I didn't really HAVE to make new pressure arms!
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Old 02-26-2007, 05:55 PM
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i have been watching this and i'm getting ready to try it myself. i think i'll take "thebandit"s advise and look into a trunnion cylinder. anyone have a link to someone that sells a small 2 or 2.5 die. 20 or 24 ''length cylinder with trunnion mounts? i have looked and sent a few emails asking Mun. if they could have one built with ZERO replies.

a link would be nice seeing how i stink at the web.

thank you.
jim
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Old 02-26-2007, 10:57 PM
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I got my cylinder, valve, and second batch of hoses at Surplus Center. They are a good company to deal with, and have good search options just by using links on the site, you can sort by size for one. They also ship pretty quickly normally.

I got my power pack from Northern tool, and the first set of hoses and fitting. They also are a good company to deal with, but their online searching and part finding capabilities flat out suck, sort by major category and price only. Its easier to find stuff at McMaster Carr...

The above links go directly to trunnion cylinders at SC and just normal cylinders at Northern. Hope that helps.
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