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  #1  
Old 04-06-2015, 04:06 PM
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JD2 model 4 and Bend tech issue

Hey guys. Real quick history on this problem. I have been using this combination for 5 years or so. I have had great results with it until recently and for the life of me cannot figure out why. I have called Bend Tech and they say they cannot help me because I'm on the 5X software. So I went ahead and purchased the upgrade to 7x but haven't installed it yet.

I am working with the same die and material I have had in my library since day 1. I'm using a 1.75 5.5 clr die with a calibrated 6.55. Material is 1.75 DOM .120 wall. My dim location is set to end as the model 4 is a rotary compression bender. I have calculated spring back using the chart so that I have a spring angle displayed. My initial take up with this material is 10*. So a quick example of a typical bend is take up + desired angle + spring back. So 10* + 90* + 7* = 107* this gives me exactly 90*. My setting is Apex as well.

Saturday I began to design an interior cage for my K5. This is when it hit the fan. I wasted 2 sticks of tubing and 12 hrs. trying to figure out what was wrong.

I desired a hoop that was 46" from floor to center. 60" wide at the floor and 46-3/4" wide at the top. I had a slight kick at 27" from the floor in each up right. I added 1" of cut off to each end.

I ended up with 63" wide at the bottom, 28"from the floor to first kick and 26" from the floor to second kick.

From what I read in the help menu on bend tech is that my bend offset location could be wrong. So I checked what I had entered for that and it was 0. (default) So I have never configured this. What I actually did when I set this up years ago was mark on the stationary die where the start of the bend was and I would line up my marks on the tube with that mark on the die. This has always worked flawlessly in the past. The other thing is I think my calibrated clr was opened from a drop down menu that was available. I just selected the manufacturer of my die (JD2) and the radius (5.5) and it auto populated the 6.55................I think.

So before I waste anymore tubing (which is incredibly frustrating) can anyone point me in the direction I should take to solve this?

I can't figure out why I have never had this issue before if it is indeed a setting issue.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:06 PM
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If I am understanding what you are saying, it sounds to me like you need to perform the calibration of your die and enter the correct info into the software. Since the Model 4 is a rotary compression bender versus a rotary draw bender, I don't know if the procedure is different or not. I am sure Bend Tech support can help with that.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:30 PM
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63" wide. I would guess your bends are coming up short on angles.
26" & 28" on the 27" legs. Sounds like Bend Location Offset needs to be changed by an inch.

I would highly recommend you go through the calibration wizard in the 7x die library. This will give you your calibrated CLR and the Bend Location Offset. Make sure the numbers it finds are the ones in your library for your die.

Also make sure your dimension location is set to "End" after you install the 7x software.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:46 PM
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Thanks for the reply guys. I will re do the calibration. I just don't understand how this has never been an issue. I will be sure to let everyone know what I find. Nothing is worse than following a thread that never has a resolve.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:51 PM
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One more thing. Once you think you have all the settings correct, create a simple 2 bend hoop with maybe 45 degree bends in the software. Make it small to not take a lot of material, but yet big enough to easily go through your die. Don't want to see you burn up a lot of time and material if you still may or may not have it dialed in.

.
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Old 04-06-2015, 07:13 PM
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I'm in the shop ready to calibrate and I'm having a hard time understating how to do it. The information tells me to place a mark a few inches from the end of the tube and line that up with my desired spot on the bender. The guy I spoke to at bend tech said for the model for most guys use the saddle. This doesn't leave me enough material in the die to make a bend?
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Old 04-06-2015, 08:03 PM
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Well here's what I've done. I cut a piece of 1.75 .120 at 42". I placed a mark location on the tube at 20" and lined it up with a spot on my stationary die. I bent to 90*.
What I get is
leg 1 18"
leg 2 28.5"
mark location 20"

clr 5.72
calibrated clr 6.4075
bend location offset -8.595

I read somewhere that for a rotary compression bender the sign should change for the bend location offset......... so I think it should read 8.595 instead of (-)8.595


I should point out that I have always used the stationary die as my mark location. Meaning I bent a piece of tubing, removed said tubing and marked the start of the bend, placed the bent tubing back in the die and used the mark on the tubing as a reference to mark the die. So the mark location on my bender is actually the start of the bend on the tubing.

So with the new calibration info plugged into my die library, and with the hoop I am still trying to manufacture, it tells me that to have my desired kick at 27" I need to place bend location at 19 5/16". This is with a -8.595 B.O.L. I know from experience this is going to give me a bend less than 27" I don't understand. Now if I change the B.O.L. to 8.595, the mark location goes up to 36 1/2". This would place my kick way more than 27" from the end of the tube. I am seriously at a loss here.

Last edited by rokcrawlr1; 04-06-2015 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 04-07-2015, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokcrawlr1 View Post
Well here's what I've done. I cut a piece of 1.75 .120 at 42". I placed a mark location on the tube at 20" and lined it up with a spot on my stationary die. I bent to 90*.
What I get is
leg 1 18"
leg 2 28.5"
mark location 20"

clr 5.72
calibrated clr 6.4075
bend location offset -8.595

I read somewhere that for a rotary compression bender the sign should change for the bend location offset......... so I think it should read 8.595 instead of (-)8.595


I should point out that I have always used the stationary die as my mark location. Meaning I bent a piece of tubing, removed said tubing and marked the start of the bend, placed the bent tubing back in the die and used the mark on the tubing as a reference to mark the die. So the mark location on my bender is actually the start of the bend on the tubing.

So with the new calibration info plugged into my die library, and with the hoop I am still trying to manufacture, it tells me that to have my desired kick at 27" I need to place bend location at 19 5/16". This is with a -8.595 B.O.L. I know from experience this is going to give me a bend less than 27" I don't understand. Now if I change the B.O.L. to 8.595, the mark location goes up to 36 1/2". This would place my kick way more than 27" from the end of the tube. I am seriously at a loss here.
You shouldn't use the saddle. It isn't consistent enough where it lays to line up the mark. We don't see very many model 4s anymore. I will explain this to the tech today. One of my techs came into my office to ask me how to do this, however, I was in a high level meeting I couldn't be interrupted with a couple of engineers out of town. When the meeting was over it was after hours and I didn't get the chance to meet up with the tech before he was gone for the day.

My name is Cris. Call in and ask for me. Or we can also do it in this thread as I am going to be in and out all week.

Make a mark on the tube and line it up to your main die. I need to know:
1) cut length
2) mark location
3) which end is being bent. (i.e. mark the tubing at 20" and the bend is before the 20")

Bend the tube to 90 degrees.

4) measure the leg with the mark on it such that the tube is resting on a table top and with the marked leg in the air. Measure from the table top to the end of the tube in the air.
5) same for the leg without the mark on it.

I will take your values and provide to you the correct results.

One more question; there are 2 ways to load the tubing into the model 4 bender. Is the tail stock stationary or the first bend stationary when you are making a 2nd bend?

Thank you for your patience and for allowing me to help you out.

Cris
1.651.257.8715
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  #9  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:16 AM
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Thanks Cris, your tech was very determined to help me and that is customer service you can't beat! I understand he didn't have the resources but he damn sure tried and I can appreciate that. I was wrong in my first post about the leg lengths. They are they same to center. Must've been seeing too much red to read the tape. Sorry. I have determined my mark location on the die IS the start of the bend. So the only issue that remains is my bend angles.

As mentioned above,
I used a piece of 1.75 x .120 that was cut at 42".
I measured from the end of the tube (x) to 20" and lined this up with the mark on my stationary die
I bent to 90*
Leg 1 (X) measured 18"
Leg 2 measured 28.5"
I am loading the tubing into the back of the bender as can be seen in the JD2 video. So when bending a 2nd bend, the first bend is swinging in the shop and the un bent tubing is stationary.

Last edited by rokcrawlr1; 04-07-2015 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokcrawlr1 View Post
Thanks Cris, your tech was very determined to help me and that is customer service you can't beat! I understand he didn't have the resources but he damn sure tried and I can appreciate that. I was wrong in my first post about the leg lengths. They are they same to center. Must've been seeing too much red to read the tape. Sorry. I have determined my mark location on the die IS the start of the bend. So the only issue that remains is my bend angles.

As mentioned above,
I used a piece of 1.75 x .120 that was cut at 42".
I placed a mark at 20" and lined this up with the mark on my stationary die
I bent to 90*
Leg 1 measured 18"
Leg 2 measured 28.5"
I am loading the tubing into the back of the bender as can be seen in the JD2 video. So when bending a 2nd bend, the first bend is swinging in the shop and the un bent tubing is stationary.
Your numbers are very "even". Is this the "exact" measurements?
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Cris@bend-tech.com

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  #11  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:20 AM
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Yes as accurate as a tape measure can get me
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:23 AM
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42" cut length
20" mark

Is the bend on the 20" side of the mark or the 22" side of the mark? This can be verified by measuring the leg with the mark and measuring from the leg end to that mark. This leg will NOT be the leg with the bend in it.

edit**** Reread your post. I think you already provided this for me.

.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:29 AM
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Just to clarify the only issue I'm having now is that the bend angles need to increase. So with my desired 60" from center to center of my hoop I have 63.5".

The previous calibration of 5.5 clr with a 6.55 calibrated clr gave me bend angles of 20* and 77*.

My recent calibration of 5.72 clr with a 6.4075 calibrated clr gives me bend angles of 19* and 76*.

So it seems I'm getting less bend angle with the new calibration. Maybe I need to adjust my spring back chart or takeup figure to accommodate?
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabcam View Post
42" cut length
20" mark

Is the bend on the 20" side of the mark or the 22" side of the mark? This can be verified by measuring the leg with the mark and measuring from the leg end to that mark. This leg will NOT be the leg with the bend in it.

edit**** Reread your post. I think you already provided this for me.

.
I placed an X at the end of the tube and pulled my tape from that end to 20". So the bend would be inside the 20" mark.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:33 AM
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I think I found the problem with the way you guys were using the wizard. The leg with the mark on it is considered to be leg 1. This is the 28.5 leg. If I do that in the wizard, here is what I get:

Achieved CLR: 5.72
Calibrated CLR: 6.408
BLO: 1.905

The leg with the "X" for sake of the calibration wizard is considered to be leg 2. When you are making parts in the software, make sure the "X" is the first bend to be bent, just like you are doing it.

I am a little concerned about the 1.905 number. The reason is that I estimated that your BLO was off by 1" before. This maybe because you have bends other than 90 degrees.

Please make a simple "L" or "U" bracket in the software and verify the numbers work before going into a complex part.

Take care,
Cris
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:40 AM
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I do need to verify if the bend mark should be considered 20 or 22 in this case. I will have Michael give you a call so you don't wreck anymore tubing.

.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokcrawlr1 View Post
Just to clarify the only issue I'm having now is that the bend angles need to increase. So with my desired 60" from center to center of my hoop I have 63.5".

The previous calibration of 5.5 clr with a 6.55 calibrated clr gave me bend angles of 20* and 77*.

My recent calibration of 5.72 clr with a 6.4075 calibrated clr gives me bend angles of 19* and 76*.

So it seems I'm getting less bend angle with the new calibration. Maybe I need to adjust my spring back chart or takeup figure to accommodate?

The calibration does not change the bend angles. Something else is affecting this. Yes, you will need to change your spring back charts for overbending to get the angle you need. The bottom line is you need the angle the software gives you as angle (not spring angle) when you are finished regardless of how you get there.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:55 AM
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I apologize, the wizard makes you put the tubing into the machine backwards. I will sit down with the developers and go over this with them. I believe the mark is considered to be at 22 (42-20) in your case. The CLR values stay the same, but the BLO changes to -0.095.

This goes back to the way you think it should have been; (close to 0.0). Negative or Positive is not relative to in this case because you are marking in the die not on the end. Now with that said, maybe the problem all along was the bend angles were not tight enough.

I will take a deep breath and rethink through this to make sure I am correct.

.
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Old 04-07-2015, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabcam View Post
I apologize, the wizard makes you put the tubing into the machine backwards. I will sit down with the developers and go over this with them. I believe the mark is considered to be at 22 (42-20) in your case. The CLR values stay the same, but the BLO changes to -0.095.

This goes back to the way you think it should have been; (close to 0.0). Negative or Positive is not relative to in this case because you are marking in the die not on the end. Now with that said, maybe the problem all along was the bend angles were not tight enough.

I will take a deep breath and rethink through this to make sure I am correct.

.
I see. So the end I am placing the (x) on and pulling my tape from was not the desired end for wizard to calculate. A notation of that might help others in the future. You have been very helpful Cris. I also agree with you that the BLO is close and that I am having a bend angle issue. I'm sure there is some mathematical way to determine how much I need to add to either the spring back or take up to get the 60" center.
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Old 04-07-2015, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokcrawlr1 View Post
I see. So the end I am placing the (x) on and pulling my tape from was not the desired end for wizard to calculate. A notation of that might help others in the future. You have been very helpful Cris. I also agree with you that the BLO is close and that I am having a bend angle issue. I'm sure there is some mathematical way to determine how much I need to add to either the spring back or take up to get the 60" center.
I agree. I will either have the wizard change or create notes. I hate to have the "X" go the opposite way for the wizard only. This will be fixed for the next patch release.
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