rjgrudge clone dies?

[vegasloki]

Has anybody used the JD2 compatible dies from "rjgrudge" on eBay? He has them for ProTools as well. About half the price of the JD2 dies.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Die-JD2-MODEL-3-...item27b372b478

[shaggy10000]

Originally Posted by vegasloki

Has anybody used the JD2 compatible dies from "rjgrudge" on eBay? He has them for ProTools as well. About half the price of the JD2 dies.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Die-JD2-MODEL-3-...item27b372b478

Interesting that he's in clearwater. wasnt that guy that was stealing from pro tools shipping them from clearwawter?

[Rock4XFab]

I think somebody is going to get ripped, as those die sets are not compatable with each bender.. its one or the other.

[vegasloki]

That's why he says to tell him which bender you have and he'll send the die for that bender. He says they aren't interchangable.

[entropy]

K...

So here is my take.
IF a Pro Tools or JD die costs for example US$250.
And...
This guy is kicking them for example US$200

And both PT and JD can buy the steel, etc, in fairly large quantity thus likely getting a discount. Further, both JD & PT can afford CNC machinery to do their production on...
Where is this person shaving costs?
I mean no harm in this just curious, it almost has to be shop rate and to pull $50/item this person has zero overhead, a real small profit margin, OR, the materials are junk...
Not casting aspersions; Just saying, and

[ferociousllama]

Bought a die from him. It works just like you'd expect any die to work.

In the business of specialized tools, like tube bending dies, it's a relatively low volume market, so the profit on each item sold must be high.

This guy probably has a mill and lathe (and whatever else is needed for making dies) in his garage or he has a shop.

"Shop rate" includes the cost of overhead, this guy probably has little or no overhead.

I made up the numbers below but it shows how a person can see this sort of project as a good deal.
He looks at it like this, he says I can make $100 selling a die on ebay and it will take 2 hours work to make that die. That's $100 per hour. There's no other costs because new end mills are paid for by the shop and looked at as a cost for the work the shop "normally" does.

The other thing is that the shop may have a janitor and a receptionist, this guy doesn't. This guy only has to profit enough per die to pay himself, other companies have to profit enough to pay the machinist, the janitor, and the receptionist.

The bottom line is that there's a HUGE percentage of markup for dies for tube benders because it's a very specialized product and thus very low volume compared to say a screwdriver.

I think the "lower quality materials" that people pitch about lower priced products is only marketing. Americans typically have a problem paying for "service" they don't have a problem paying for "better materials". The quality of materials sales pitch came about because it's easier to talk a customer into being okay with a higher price because of "better materials" than because the salesman just spent an hour with him talking about the tool and making sure the tool in question is what the customer needs.

But after being in sales for a bunch of years, I learned all the tricks and my products being made with "better materials" is nothing more than a trick.

Just some food for thought.

[shaggy10000]

Originally Posted by ferociousllama

Bought a die from him. It works just like you'd expect any die to work.

In the business of specialized tools, like tube bending dies, it's a relatively low volume market, so the profit on each item sold must be high.

This guy probably has a mill and lathe (and whatever else is needed for making dies) in his garage or he has a shop.

"Shop rate" includes the cost of overhead, this guy probably has little or no overhead.

I made up the numbers below but it shows how a person can see this sort of project as a good deal.
He looks at it like this, he says I can make $100 selling a die on ebay and it will take 2 hours work to make that die. That's $100 per hour. There's no other costs because new end mills are paid for by the shop and looked at as a cost for the work the shop "normally" does.

The other thing is that the shop may have a janitor and a receptionist, this guy doesn't. This guy only has to profit enough per die to pay himself, other companies have to profit enough to pay the machinist, the janitor, and the receptionist.

The bottom line is that there's a HUGE percentage of markup for dies for tube benders because it's a very specialized product and thus very low volume compared to say a screwdriver.

I think the "lower quality materials" that people pitch about lower priced products is only marketing. Americans typically have a problem paying for "service" they don't have a problem paying for "better materials". The quality of materials sales pitch came about because it's easier to talk a customer into being okay with a higher price because of "better materials" than because the salesman just spent an hour with him talking about the tool and making sure the tool in question is what the customer needs.

But after being in sales for a bunch of years, I learned all the tricks and my products being made with "better materials" is nothing more than a trick.

Just some food for thought.

50 per hour btw.... Anyway do you have a pic of the die you bought? The pic looks exactly like pro tools does it. Almost too close. So either the actual product is different than the pic or.... Well Who knows.

We all get what your saying about doing stuff out of your garage. I do it all the time. Im doing a bumper/spare tire carrier for a guy right now. He just bought a 2nd jeep and wants a tire carrier just like the one he bought for 600 bones. Mine's just going to cost him 350. I will make around 250 in profit.
I work with a guy who has a full cnc machine shop for a "garage". Its just him so there's not much overhead to speak of. He literally watches parts shoot out while he eats his sandwich.
Im not saying this guy's not legit. But i am saying I'd at least ask some questions before i spent my money on them. Their not that much cheaper. Is he going to back up his quality like pro tools does? The finish on the follower block is very important. I'd like to see an actual pic of the finish as well.

[mikefrombc]

i have made roughly 30 dies sets over the last 5yrs at the shop i,m at , they are alot more time consuming then most think , and as the size increases so does the material costs and the amount of time needed to machine the parts , i have documented the procedures used to do a die on here , that die was close to 10hrs i believe before it was ready for bending .

as for guys working out of shops at home i do (parttime ) , i own all my equipment outright and i don,t work for less then $65 an hr , plus materials and such it costs $$ to run a shop even as a hobby , tooling is always in need and hydro has to be paid etc.

[baxter]

Originally Posted by Rock4XFab

I think somebody is going to get ripped, as those die sets are not compatable with each bender.. its one or the other.

Not being mouthy or nothing but I run my 1 3/4 protools HD die in my JD2 bender an have no issue.That's why I never bought one specific for my JD2.It's the only die I switch like that but it works.

[FrogDog]

Originally Posted by baxter

Not being mouthy or nothing but I run my 1 3/4 protools HD die in my JD2 bender an have no issue.That's why I never bought one specific for my JD2.It's the only die I switch like that but it works.

LOL... .. your not mouthy Bro... all'z good... I have 9 JD dies...

specific knock offs (at least for JD) + some .. have been shipped from china for a while now .. called the 'Magnum' line .. up here anyways...

Where do we go from here....


Dog...

[pepi3737]

I just looked through my ebay feedback and I guess i unknowingly purchased two dies from this guy. I hate to promote a knock off but they actually are very descent dies. just my 2 cents

[Rockrunner86]

Or Pro-tools and JD have little or no compention and are bending us all over?

Originally Posted by entropy

K...



So here is my take.
IF a Pro Tools or JD die costs for example US$250.
And...
This guy is kicking them for example US$200

And both PT and JD can buy the steel, etc, in fairly large quantity thus likely getting a discount. Further, both JD & PT can afford CNC machinery to do their production on...
Where is this person shaving costs?
I mean no harm in this just curious, it almost has to be shop rate and to pull $50/item this person has zero overhead, a real small profit margin, OR, the materials are junk...
Not casting aspersions; Just saying, and

[ferociousllama]

RockRunner hit it on the head. Pro-Tools and JD2 have little or no competition so prices go up...higher than a natural economic situation would set the price.


Also I found out this guy uses scrap metal for his dies. he probably does work with huge steel bars and he takes the scrap. I believe this is true because some dies are made with 1018 steel follower blocks, some aluminum, and some 1054 (I think that's the number he said) steel. The reason he does this is because he gets the metal for cheap or free and turns them into dies and makes some money. I have 2 dies now from this guy, and they both work just as good as my way more expensive pro-tools dies.

[mikefrombc]

Originally Posted by ferociousllama

RockRunner hit it on the head. Pro-Tools and JD2 have little or no competition so prices go up...higher than a natural economic situation would set the price.


Also I found out this guy uses scrap metal for his dies. he probably does work with huge steel bars and he takes the scrap. I believe this is true because some dies are made with 1018 steel follower blocks, some aluminum, and some 1054 (I think that's the number he said) steel. The reason he does this is because he gets the metal for cheap or free and turns them into dies and makes some money. I have 2 dies now from this guy, and they both work just as good as my way more expensive pro-tools dies.

i,m betting its 1045 and as far as scrap goes your sure he didn,t say CROPS ?? this is a term used for shortends and leftovers suppliers are sometimes left with after selling off the rest of the bar to various customers at various lengths , we buy crops often for making dies as most people don,t need a 12" to 16" OD crop of steel 3" long or so . ya they tend to sell for a scrap price at times due to the fact most people don,t want the heel of the bar if it has been sheared during the milling process at the mill .

[vegasloki]

Thanks for the input gang. I thought it might be something like a garage based guy making them from leftover cuts. I should probably get one and check it out myself.

[jackalope]

Originally Posted by mikefrombc

i have made roughly 30 dies sets over the last 5yrs at the shop i,m at , they are alot more time consuming then most think , and as the size increases so does the material costs and the amount of time needed to machine the parts , i have documented the procedures used to do a die on here , that die was close to 10hrs i believe before it was ready for bending .

as for guys working out of shops at home i do (parttime ) , i own all my equipment outright and i don,t work for less then $65 an hr , plus materials and such it costs $$ to run a shop even as a hobby , tooling is always in need and hydro has to be paid etc.

I have made die sets as well and I can guarantee that there is no way a home shop, without high end CNC machines, can make a die on manual machines in 2 freakin' hours. Simply impossible. I can also say that I would definately buy the die sets for the going rate before making them UNLESS I had time to burn and a lot of desire!

Grant