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  #41  
Old 09-27-2006, 05:18 PM
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TheBandit TheBandit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainfab
Clint. I'm sorry if you took this as aimed at you or others that grind their welds. It wasn't intended that way. There's nothing wrong with a nicely smoothed weld as long as the penetration is there. It's just my preferance to not grind my welds unless it is required for some reason. In fact if you weld a cage that has to pass an inspection, say NHRA, ground weld is an automatic failure of the inspection.
John, I absolutely did not see it as being aimed at me. I am still a very amatuer fabricator and I wanted to learn from the pictures you posted.

When I ground the welds smooth on my bumper, I knew it wasn't good for strength. But I assumed they would be adequate since I did not grind the welds any thinner than the adjoined material. I spent a lot of time getting the fitment just right, but I had a hard time welding around the tube because I'm not used to it. I had a lot of starts and stops because I hadn't positioned myself right or couldn't see where I was going. Hopefully the welds are still adequate despite the grinding.

I will probably never grind another weld for two reasons (1) I know it isn't good for strength and (2) I am getting a lot better at welding tube.

Thank you for posting these pictures because it's brought some key issues to my attention and opened up some educational discussion.
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  #42  
Old 09-27-2006, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainfab
I guess it would be easier to point out the problems in the pics if i knew how to add arrows and circles to them.
Trade ya Capt Fab,,, all you need is a halfway decent photo edit program, I am a Photoshop user, but Photo Impact, Paint Sho[p and a bunch of other programs will let you draw an arrow or circle.

Let me know if you want one.

How can you tell this has no penitration or NOT enough??

Mike
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  #43  
Old 09-28-2006, 11:43 PM
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Wonk Wonk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainfab
Wow I wasn't expecting ..... Instead the guy just [/font]filled the gap [font=Verdana]with weld, and then ...
As long as we've turned this thread into a welding class I have a question regarding you're remark Captainfab. Keeping in mind that I realize that this was a cage and you should accept nothing but first quality work on something that is supposed to help protect you, what is the problem with filling in some not so perfect fitup with weld? The tensile strength of the wire is higher than the parent metal. If you were to make several good passes to fill a gap then tie it all together with a good cover pass should this not be nearly as strong as a single pass on a good fitup?

The reason I ask is because I am presently building a rear bumper for my Jeep and I have a tube connected on both ends with a very long fishmouth (1.75" tube with about a 4" long fishmouth connecting in a bend. Man I wish Chris would get that new program done ). When I cut the fishmouth, I missed on one side of one of the ends and ended up with a gap that tapers out to about 1/4" at it widest point. This gap will be on the bottom side of the bumper where you will have to crawl underneath to see it. Again, I realize this is not a cage. ?????
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  #44  
Old 09-29-2006, 02:03 PM
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Captainfab Captainfab is offline
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The problem I was refering to was mostly the fact that the person that welded that cage didn't appear to make much of an attempt to insure a good fitup of the tubes before welding. In fact some of the joints look as though they may not have been notched at all! so consequently the gaps that were filled were 1/2" to 1' wide. Definitely not a good fabrication practice! Also most of the rest of the welds that weren't ground really looked like shit, and didn't appear to have sufficient penetration, or enough metal deposition. I didn't get pics of them, and it's been powder coated and is gone now. And on top of it all this cage was welded together for someone else, who I'm thinking had someone else weld it so it would be done right. This was done at a local fabrication business, so a person should expect it to be done correctly.

Some of my post was a personal rant about the fact that I have a hard time attracting work such as cages (which I enjoy doing) but guys like this get work of this type often, and do lesser quality work than I do. And also the fact that so many people accept that kind of work from so called fabricators/welders.

Any way to your question regarding filling a gap. Notching a tube to intersect another tube at a bend is not easy to do, and often times the result is a gap that needs to be filled. Although not ideal, an gap can be filled without compromising the overall strength too much. A tapered gap of 1/4" isn't too bad, and it sound as though you know a thing or two about welding so you should be able to weld it up with no problem. Typically I don't like to have a gap any wider that the thickness of the material being welded....of course narrower or none is preferable.
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  #45  
Old 09-29-2006, 10:10 PM
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Thanks for the reply. In my opinion my welding sucks most of the time. Old eyes, shaky hands, and I need to buy a good auto darkening hood that is adjustable because the cheap one I have is a ten shade and half the time I can't distinguish the edges of the materials I'm welding.

I filled that gap today and it was actually closer to 3/8". It filled well although you can definitely tell the fitup wasn't ideal but it is on the underside. This bumper is for my personal Jeep so it doesn't matter as much. I like the looks of nodes so I got a little carried away on this thing. It has 24 notches altogether with 2 nodes of 4 tubes, 2 nodes of 3 tubes, 4 notches in a curve, and 10 of the 24 notches at least 4" long. Don't ask me why. ????
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  #46  
Old 09-30-2006, 09:06 AM
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kwrangln kwrangln is offline
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You are not a real fabricator when...


You think its ok to weld a pitman arm to a steering knuckle for high steer. Found on the web.




The "fabricator" in question later ditched the idea after a huge ammount of bashing on the board he posted the pics on. Count that as another one saved.
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  #47  
Old 09-30-2006, 11:17 AM
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When I used to build sand rails for a living some customers wanted the smooth look. I would weld up the frame and then bondo the welds. I really don't like not being able to see what is going on at a tube joint since buggies are subjected to quite a bit of stress and many times tubes start working at the edges of the welds. With a bondo cover it's hard to tell just what's going on.
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  #48  
Old 12-13-2006, 11:02 PM
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therail therail is offline
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Youre not a real fabricator when your a-arm extends byond the venterline of your wheel.

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  #49  
Old 12-14-2006, 11:17 AM
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rocknbronco rocknbronco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therail
Youre not a real fabricator when your a-arm extends byond the venterline of your wheel.

Thats looks really great kinda the road warrior look for the trail
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  #50  
Old 12-15-2006, 01:16 AM
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KeithXtreme KeithXtreme is offline
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What the hell is that? that is freaking funny!!
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  #51  
Old 12-15-2006, 07:38 PM
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Halogrinder Halogrinder is offline
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he's got a ton of money wrapped up in the shocks and coil overs too
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  #52  
Old 12-15-2006, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithXtreme
What the hell is that? that is freaking funny!!
thats a great mount for a rock light
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  #53  
Old 12-16-2006, 02:29 AM
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russellmn russellmn is offline
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Looks like he was trying to copy Honda's design for their cars. problem is I don't imagine a design that works quite well for road racing would work very well at all off road.
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  #54  
Old 12-17-2006, 01:20 AM
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BadDog BadDog is offline
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The truck looks rigged as a pre-runner. My guess is that he's done it for suspension geometry during hard compression/droop, such as jumping and landing. Normally, those upper arms are very short compared to the lowers. So short that the difference in arc causes heavy in boarding of the upper mount when compressed or drooped more than a (relative) few inches. So you get really heavy camber, broken joints, or damaged coils/shocks, suspension problems, and other not good things. If the length of both upper and lower are roughly the same (along with parallel of course), then the tire will retain the same camber, and you will be allowed longer travel potential without many of those problems coming into play. Looks like strange, but may be quite functional...
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  #55  
Old 12-19-2006, 12:17 AM
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binderbound binderbound is offline
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Don't forget the sched 40 cages built with harbor freight pipe kinkers. I had pics of a Toyota 'buggy' built like that. I think I lost them though.
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  #56  
Old 12-19-2006, 12:46 AM
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Captainfab Captainfab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by binderbound
Don't forget the sched 40 cages built with harbor freight pipe kinkers. I had pics of a Toyota 'buggy' built like that. I think I lost them though.
I see quite a bit of that around here
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  #57  
Old 12-19-2006, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainfab
I see quite a bit of that around here
Its just sad. I ran into this guy on the trail last spring. He just payed a bunch of money for the 'buggy' to be built. It was atrocious. Sched 40, butt welded in several places, kinked bends. He thought it was sweet cuz he payed for it. Here I am, working my ass off to get work like that, and there are ass hats out there selling crap like that. Makes me so angry!
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  #58  
Old 12-19-2006, 01:06 AM
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KeithXtreme KeithXtreme is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by binderbound
Its just sad. I ran into this guy on the trail last spring. He just payed a bunch of money for the 'buggy' to be built. It was atrocious. Sched 40, butt welded in several places, kinked bends. He thought it was sweet cuz he payed for it. Here I am, working my ass off to get work like that, and there are ass hats out there selling crap like that. Makes me so angry!
I totally agree, not to mention the lawsuit that company will have when a rig of theirs rolls and crushes the occupants.....

Some people will never learn about Sched. 40......I guess it would be another thing if plumbers where using DOM or HREW, but I dont really think I have ever heard of that happening.....
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  #59  
Old 12-19-2006, 02:33 AM
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Hey, just made me think, a while back I saw a "cage" made from pipe and screw together cast fittings in an old CJ. Also saw a ricer with a PVC "cage" on the web somewhere.

Speaking of the "HF kinker", one of the AZ crew has actually figured out how to use one of those things and not too shabby I must grudgingly say. He’s made up some shims, and tries to keep the bends to around 60* but no more than 75* (IIRC). It’s much slower and more tedious, and he also produces a fair bit of scrap when it “slips”. But he’s managed to build 2 buggies with tube (not pipe) using that thing and I would challenge anyone to identify it as being bent using a pipe bender. He is an engineer and worked out his buggy design so that it needed a minimum of bends above his limit. And I know for a fact it’s been over several times, and other than one 40+ mph roll over a berm hauling ass (built 454 in a 2+2 buggy) down a fire road in a power slide that tweaked it, it’s held up as well as any I’ve seen.
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  #60  
Old 12-19-2006, 02:37 AM
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rocknbronco rocknbronco is offline
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Hey PCV cages save weight all kidding aside I once knew of a fabricator who roll cage broke at a drag strip his reply Its supposed to do that yeah right
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