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  #1  
Old 04-10-2014, 10:49 AM
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AlxJ64 AlxJ64 is offline
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'42 Dodge Carryall 4 Link with Cummins/Allison

This project is already scattered all over the internet as I am doing what I can to draw expertise from the various divisions of fabricators in the hobbys that they play in. The most help chassis wise I've found over on Pirate4x4. The most help engine wise has obviously been over on 4btswaps. I'm hoping that this forum can fill in the gap on a few more technical sides of that actual fabrication required. Tips and tricks, advice on construction tech, etc.

The project is a 1942 Dodge WC53 Carryall, 3/4 ton Military truck. 8400 built in late '41-early '43. The "theme" is to keep a strong military look but use modern parts and change the exterior body little to none at all, and even the interior I'd like to hide modern features into old looks. This is a hard task, especially when designing a 4 link front suspension. My suspension numbers were built within a tight set of calculations. I know the axle seperation is a little tight but the motion numbers work out to give me almost zero pinion caster change so that should really help make this thing drive nice.

Project overview

Cummins ISB170 4 cyl Common Rail Turbo Diesel
Allison 1000 5 Speed
Divorced NP205 drivers output
Eaton HO72 Rear, 4.56s
Eaton HO72/D60 Hybrid front
38" Michelin XMLs
Hutchinson R16 Border Patrol Beadlocks
4 Link front w/ 10" ORI struts
Detroit Custom Rear springs w/ antiwrap bar

Then a few simple bells and whistles like Vintage Air A/C, wood panel floor, and toying with the idea of power window conversions but thats all down the road details as its already taking longer than I hoped... but thats the name of the game with this stuff I guess.

Quick run of pictures since I'm partially into the project.



Rebuilding tailgate and rear cross member.






Front axle

Front suspension stuff





Motor and Transmission



Transfer Case stuff



And what it looks like rolling with the body on, but the motor just hanging without the rear mount in place.



And I have now reached the point of where I am boxing the frame, building a rear over axle cross member, flush mounting a reciever hitch and laying out the design for the fuel tank and the support.


So here is my first question for those who can point me in the right direction and will allow me to scavenge ideas off of.

For the fuel tank I am just looking at going with some 16ga steel, bead roll in a few ridges (never used a bead roller but have borrowed one), then bend some edges on each of the panel sides so that they overlap and I can weld the overlaps as fillet welds rather than doing corner edge welds everywhere.

Looking at going with a 30 gal total tank which is a 34x24x8.5 o'all dimension.

I'll put a sump fitting at the lowest corner. I've heard to make the pickup tube as far from the filler and return points as possible that way to allow as much de-airing to occur inside the tank. I was thinking two baffle ribs inside running parallel to the frame which will be parallel to the strap bands I intend on using. Was just going to bend flat bar and use rubber insulator material.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:34 AM
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Great build, Love the body style.
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Old 04-10-2014, 12:50 PM
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Nice work and attention to detail!
Been a looong time since I've built one of these.

Fuel tank, if you were going with Gas I would recommend Stainless, with diesel that need is not as necessary, if the budget allows I would still fab in stainless.
I will toss out some construction ideas.
Made the tank with as few welds as possible, thus the front wall bottom and rear wall formed from one sheet with sides and top as another unit.
16-ga is a reasonable compromise strength to weight but I would definitely plan on a skid plate. To keep the period look if that is desired you could simply fab the front,bottom,rear-piece out of 12-Ga. and incorporate the tank mounts to the heavier sheet (Ft&R) forgoing the straps.

The filler neck location is not as critical as the return line. When fueling the aerated fuel will be mixed throughout the tank the return line should be as far from the pick Up as possible. It should also extend down into the tank to about 1/2" from the bottom of the tank. This will keep the aeration in the tank as low as possible.
I also like to put a bung in the bottom of the tank so that I have a way to drain the tank without opening the fuel outlet to the engine.


I'd like to see the detains on your front suspension... Link?


E
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:10 PM
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Very nice work! I really like those T-Case brackets. I've never seen one of these before, let alone all built up.

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Old 04-10-2014, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy View Post
Nice work and attention to detail!
Been a looong time since I've built one of these.

Fuel tank, if you were going with Gas I would recommend Stainless, with diesel that need is not as necessary, if the budget allows I would still fab in stainless.
I will toss out some construction ideas.
Made the tank with as few welds as possible, thus the front wall bottom and rear wall formed from one sheet with sides and top as another unit.
16-ga is a reasonable compromise strength to weight but I would definitely plan on a skid plate. To keep the period look if that is desired you could simply fab the front,bottom,rear-piece out of 12-Ga. and incorporate the tank mounts to the heavier sheet (Ft&R) forgoing the straps.

The filler neck location is not as critical as the return line. When fueling the aerated fuel will be mixed throughout the tank the return line should be as far from the pick Up as possible. It should also extend down into the tank to about 1/2" from the bottom of the tank. This will keep the aeration in the tank as low as possible.
I also like to put a bung in the bottom of the tank so that I have a way to drain the tank without opening the fuel outlet to the engine.


I'd like to see the detains on your front suspension... Link?


E


Many thanks on the tips for the tank build. Yea, its diesel so the mild cold roll sheet is prob what I will go with. I like the idea of the bottom being a thicker skid piece that is also the support.. The idea behind the bands though was to allow the chassis to flex (frame is notoriously twisty on these trucks, even though I am boxing it in) and that way it won't put any weird loads on the tank. Then again fixed mounts using something like sway bar end link bushings as isolaters would probably also work. Many things to ponder on!

The front suspension went together in phases so nowhere out there is it a real wham bam thank you ma'am on its assembly.

2x.250 Lowers with Metal cloak joints at one end, and clevite JK shells in the other.
1.75x120 uppers with same setup for end links.

The brackets all bolt to the frame so I don't have to worry about steel fatigue between the WWII frame and the newer mild plate I am using. The frame on this truck is funky and porous. You can tell while drilling through it that its full of toy metal dumptrucks, refrigerator doors, and plow blades that were all scavenged by the Boyscouts. This truck is an Oct '42 build date so the war had really started steaming along at that point.

Anyways, the towers bolt on as well and also on the driver's side it supports the AGR steering box and the track bar.

Pictures speak a thousand words.

To get the bushing width out to 2.625" I built up some plate brackets


View of the pass side link locations.



This is ride height-ish. Its going to be close. I am shooting for 5.5" up 4.5" down with the 10" struts.


View of the strut mounted.


Full lock



Cross over steering box replacement. You can see the old tiller type box mount behind it.


Tracbar, link, and strut combo bracket on pass side.


Tracbar and steering at full bump full lock.


Thats all I got. I'd have to dig out my spreadsheets again to get seperation and length numbers again. It cycles without hardly any pinion change, less than 0.5 total. Hoping to reduce any chance of causing bump steer or death wobble. Plan is after the motor is actually in place and I start working on the radiator, intercooler, etc is to figure out the details on some mil-spec looking over the engine brace between the strut towers. Not very much room under the hood on this thing though.
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:45 PM
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One more quick question on the tank design... venting... The filler neck on this truck is outside the body and is just a screw down cap and no venting.. It probably doesn't seal all that well, but I don't want the diesel to sweat down the filler like I always see on the sides of equipment where the filler is sweating and then the dust sticks and its just crappy.

I am thinking about using a marine type Ptrap vent. Works for a boat and they slosh all over the place. Should work for the truck.. I can then also plumb the vent outlet to whereever I need it. Right?
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Old 04-10-2014, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlxJ64 View Post
One more quick question on the tank design... venting... The filler neck on this truck is outside the body and is just a screw down cap and no venting.. It probably doesn't seal all that well, but I don't want the diesel to sweat down the filler like I always see on the sides of equipment where the filler is sweating and then the dust sticks and its just crappy.

I am thinking about using a marine type Ptrap vent. Works for a boat and they slosh all over the place. Should work for the truck.. I can then also plumb the vent outlet to whereever I need it. Right?
In addition to the Ptrap idea (good one) be sure to have about 6%-15% of the total volume of the tank above the "full tank fuel level". This is easy as you simply extend the fill tube into the top of the tank and then down into the tank however far you need.
Tap your vent into a high point in this volume I prefer the center of the tank side to side. This will allow the fuel to expand its volume that much before the liquid fuel gets to the vent port. The reason that most OEM vents go to the filler neck, even if liquid fuel flows up the vent it is dumped back into the tank.

On my Highboy, I have a 40-Gal aluminum tank across the front of the bed.
I welded a bung into the top of the tank and ran a hose to a small tank that is mounted to the front of the bed. I then ran steel tube out the top of that tank and then down between the bed and cab. I terminated the tube into a fuel filter (in line metal can type, that was used) under the bed. The idea being that IF the tank burped into the vent it would stop in the small tank. The Fuel filter just keeps bugs and dirt out. What you see was supposed to be a prototype... about 10 years ago

E
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Old 04-22-2014, 07:40 AM
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Started messing around with getting the frame plated. I know my methods aren't 100% ideal because I have a few vertical welds in my seams... however I am taking other steps to help reduce the issues from such.

The vertical seams will have backer bar plates and the ends are beveled so that I can get a nice full penetration groove weld.

I'm planning on having the entire frame dipped and then powder coated before final final assembly. (planning a driving level assembly to debug suspension, motor, etc before bothering with finish work on paint and coatings/ interior).

The frame on this thing is notably weird old steel with poor QC during production and is probably made of old refrigerator doors, metal toy dumptrucks, and who knows what else that was collected by the Boyscouts in 1942, melted, and used for the war effort. That being said, I am using the TIG and Monel RN67 Copper Nickel blended rods for the welds, and welding about 70% of the length and leaving open stitches for the remaining lengths. Hopefully this will help reduce/arrest fatigue crack propagation if one occurs within a weld and also should reduce my overall chance of a dissimilar metal fusion crack since this filler rod is specifically designed for welding of such materials.

Aint the prettiest work...



Also, I have an original pintle hitch for this truck that I actually found on my family's farm. My dad picked it up sometime in the early '80s from a local farmer to use on a farm truck. He tossed it on the floor of the said truck and then the truck wasn't driven for nearly 30 years. A friend of mine aquires it from the farm and as we are cleaning out the truck I find the hitch (which my Carryall was missing and I was in the search for) and its exactly what I need. I rebuilt the hitch assembly but also want to have a 2" receiver hitch for pulling other types of trailers. Without allowing the box hitch to stick out and still being able to use my pintle I decided to countersink my box tubing into the rear cross member.. where there is no room to get your hands for a hitch pin.

My solution is to basically create a remote pull rod for a spring loaded assembly.









I'm planning on putting a piece of PVC tube over the outside of the spring and using a big washer behind the nut to hold that in place and the spring for the latch can push against the washer. Should help keep it clean and hold a little bit of grease.

Last edited by AlxJ64; 04-22-2014 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:42 AM
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alwaysFlOoReD alwaysFlOoReD is offline
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I'm going to steal the pull rod idea.

Richard
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:08 AM
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I'm going to steal the pull rod idea.

Richard
1"x3/16" DOM
5/8" Chromoly Solid Rod
4" x 1-1/4" x 0.95" wire compression spring
7/8"-9 Thin Nylock
1/4" dia Stainless roll pin

Don't machine the roll pin guide slots all the way to the end like I did, plunge leave a little bit like a 1/4" . I had to be careful with mine when I welded it and still had to run a reamer through it because it turned into a collet by splitting the sides all the way open and the cooling from the weld still allowed it to grab the hitch pin. Stupid mistake on my part. Once I realized what I did... it was like.. DUH... Collet... duh
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Old 06-02-2014, 05:07 PM
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Doing more work... slowly..


Fixing a bad spot (torched by Prev owner) in the frame.





And since its in the top flange of the frame, I don't trust it not to pop... Would be a shame to do all this work and have the frame crack somewhere dumb... and hard to get to with the truck assembled. So I used some of my fatigue resistance detailing techniques and added an internal bolted segment to help transmit some load past the repair. It should stay mostly in compression... except for if it ever gets picked up by a post lift by the frame by a dumb dumb mechanic... and then the top of the frame sees all of the hanging weight of the front of the motor, axle, 38" radial tires, steering, etc.

Also, if I air it out (on accident ofcourse ) the top will go into tension right there.

Planning on replacing those ugly hex caps with some button heads that will look more like rivets from the profile and allow the inner fenders (which is what goes above this spot) to sit on the frame like they did originally.





Much easier to TIG upside down... when the frame is what is upside down.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:13 PM
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Really cool project. How stiff are the shock mounts? Looks like they may flex toward the engine side.
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Old 06-06-2014, 02:50 PM
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WOW! This is an awesome build. I am going to be coming back to check on this one. What a cool unique project!
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Old 06-06-2014, 03:56 PM
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Really cool project. How stiff are the shock mounts? Looks like they may flex toward the engine side.
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Originally Posted by RogueFab View Post
WOW! This is an awesome build. I am going to be coming back to check on this one. What a cool unique project!
Thanks guys!

As for the Strut towers, I am hoping to squeeze some sort of brace across the top of the motor when its all said and done, however thats going to be after getting a bunch of other things fitted, body back on etc.

I've cleared up my "side" project list pretty well lately and planning to go full bore back into this thing over the next few months. I really want to hear the engine run... which means fuel tank, and motor back into the chassis.
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:26 AM
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Okay, finishing up frame plating and moving on to my rear over axle cross member. Design idea is to help brace the rear of the frame some (body mounts and such are adjacent) but also to act as my upper reaction point for my rear shocks (Gabriel Air-assist) and also as the front portion of my fuel tank support.

Tank is going to be roughly 36" wide x 24" long x about 8.5" deep. I have access to an old finger break for making the bends and am planning on going with some 20 ga or 22 ga Stainless and then purging and TIG welding the whole thing up.

For the tank supports... I am starting to sway away from the typical "strap" mount idea and lean towards building the tank a different way. It was suggested above that making the top of the tank a touch larger and then using it as the mounting point. I was thinking that I could just make some legs off of the axle cross member and then off of the rear frame cross member that "hang" the tank and use some sort of sway bar end link bushing or body mount bushing as the isolators. Thoughts?

30 gallons of diesel fuel is heavy... 6 mounts sufficient you guys think? I'm honestly just spit balling here and trying to focus my scope on a decent mounting system thats easy to take in and out from below with the body on since the senders and such will be really tight against the rear floor and no real top access since the inside of the truck will end up with a hardwood floor (factory feature).
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AlxJ64 View Post
Okay, finishing up frame plating and moving on to my rear over axle cross member. Design idea is to help brace the rear of the frame some (body mounts and such are adjacent) but also to act as my upper reaction point for my rear shocks (Gabriel Air-assist) and also as the front portion of my fuel tank support.

Tank is going to be roughly 36" wide x 24" long x about 8.5" deep. I have access to an old finger break for making the bends and am planning on going with some 20 ga or 22 ga Stainless and then purging and TIG welding the whole thing up.

For the tank supports... I am starting to sway away from the typical "strap" mount idea and lean towards building the tank a different way. It was suggested above that making the top of the tank a touch larger and then using it as the mounting point. I was thinking that I could just make some legs off of the axle cross member and then off of the rear frame cross member that "hang" the tank and use some sort of sway bar end link bushing or body mount bushing as the isolators. Thoughts?

30 gallons of diesel fuel is heavy... 6 mounts sufficient you guys think? I'm honestly just spit balling here and trying to focus my scope on a decent mounting system thats easy to take in and out from below with the body on since the senders and such will be really tight against the rear floor and no real top access since the inside of the truck will end up with a hardwood floor (factory feature).
Tough to call the mount quantity without knowing size and flange thickness/etc. I think 8 might be a little more rigid, it would cut your span from 18" between bolts down to 12. But if you thicken up the flanges (flat) or use angle iron for the tank flanges/mounts you could certainly use only 6.

Hardwood sounds awesome. Like the 50s pickups. Very nice.
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:25 PM
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g with some 20 ga or 22 ga
Seriously?
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:50 PM
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Seriously?
Yea, if at worst, this will be good entertainment for you guys watching me ruin an entire sheet of stainless... Trial by fire and such. I am going to baffle the inside quite a bit which should help in overall rigidity and strength. The tank should never see any sort of "wheeling hit". Street beater truck and such, hence being in the hot-rod forum. I've got my TJ on 40" sticky's, doubler, full hydro, etc for all of my trail fun.

I'm throwing around ideas of the skid plate now also... which if it could hold the tank... and also be the support... that may also be cool... and strong... And allow for some torsion of the chassis to not affect the tank itself.
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:56 PM
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Strongly suggest 18 gauge or thicker. Welding 20gauge or thinner is going to SUCK.

Here's a cool article I came across a while back on fabbing a tank. Perhaps you'll find it useful: http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/...stom_gas_tank/
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Old 06-11-2014, 06:01 PM
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Mm'k... It will fab quick and if you design it with flange joints will not distort much, but...
Your baffles are going to have to be welded to the top and the bottom to stiffen the tank on the largest flat surfaces, otherwise you are setting yourself up for cracking in the future as the top and bottom oil-can.

Your mounts will need to be milti-layer and grab the sides with zero vertical welds on the first two layers. This to keep from ripping the tank at the weld. I think I would use 6-mounts 3-front and 3-rear with rubber on the bottom side and poly on the top of the Sway Bar pin mounts.

Fabing a "Skid Plate" and then supporting the full bottom of the tank might be simpler overall and if you do it right I can see 4 mounts.

The fab wont be too bad but the design could be a nightmare...

E
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