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  #1  
Old 11-17-2013, 10:24 PM
BeefaloBart's Avatar
BeefaloBart BeefaloBart is offline
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Small Rock Buggy questions.

I am looking over all the info I can find on the honda/acura rock buggies that I can find, which is what lead me here. I like to gain as much information on a project before I start cutting the first piece. So for me this is a way to also get more information by asking the questions that are on my mind.

1. What other engines and trans can be used on this type build with rear engine and transaxle just like the one on these forums and the one that Ian is doing on his show.

2. How do I know which rotation the engine is and whether it will work like the acura driveline. I do want to stick to auto trans since thats what I prefer.

3. Is there a Magic number on wheelbase for a project like this. I do not plan on doing any major competing with the buggy, just recreational crawling.

4. I have meet many who flame me about the idea of using a D30/35 combo for a buggy, but my original plans were to go front engine, and use a Jeep XJ for the donor vehicle. The D30/35 combo is not a highly desireable axle setup for all the known reasons but in the early stages it will get the project drivable til a good set of axles can be found.

5. Cost is a major topic for me and my budget will limit purchases to under $300 per stage. Engine, trans, axles, so forth. Nothing can be over that limit unless I can find a donor vehicle cheap enough and sell the unused parts as scrap. This goes back to the first question of engine trans combo.

I have a 93 Wrangler which I use as a daily driver and weekend warrior to hit trails such as "The Gulches ORV", and "Uhwarrie" I have had no major issues with the YJ doing light crawling, but want something a bit more useful in harsher trails.

6. What sort of designs like the Goatbilt Ibex would be suitable where there are little to no bends to the tubing. Bending scares me since I know I would goober up a bunch of tube learning.
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  #2  
Old 11-18-2013, 07:34 PM
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raceplayhavefun raceplayhavefun is offline
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I can try to help you with some of your questions by telling you about mine. I recently built a two seat buggy similar in concept to the Acura/Honda buggy you refer to. I used a GM Ecotec from a Cavalier/Sunfire. The 02.5-05 is the desirable version. Lightweight, cheap, simple. These are standard rotation. My buggy is 110" Wheelbase. This is as short as I could get it. I turned my transaxle "backwards" so the serpentine drive is at the rear of the buggy. The seats lay back over the bellhousing area. With the motor backwards, the axles need to be upside down to make everything go forwards again. I used Toyota Landcrusier FJ62 axles as they are cheap, plentiful, and rugged as hell. They are 9.5" ring gears, 30 spline axles, and you can put longfields in the front for extra strength. The 62's come with 4.10:1 gears. So with all that said, I'll try to answer your questions:

1) Any transaxle should be able to be used. I used the GM because they are cheap and plentiful. Keep in mind you need to get the wiring sorted out and make the ECU standalone. Nothing beats GM for inexpensive wiring and ECU work.

2) I believe the Acura/Honda is the only "reverse" rotation motor available. I know it is only certain years, and I have no idea which years. All others that I know of are normal rotation. I like my standard rotation with flipped axles as this gives me better pinion angle and more clearance at the pinion without the cost of a high pinion axle.

3) A lot of this depends on where you wheel and how you wheel. Mine is 110". Most days I wish it was 105". I tried but just could not make it all fit in 105". I'm in the northeast where everything is TIGHT. Most people will agree that 105-115" is about ideal anywhere. Mine currently has welded diffs so it is hard to turn, it just wants to push straight ahead. A shorter wheelbase would help. The breakover angle would be better with the same belly height but shorter wheelbase. Where you are, the longer wheelbase may be better.

4) Look at the Landcruisers. Cheap and rugged. I bet the 30/35 will live for a while depending how you drive it. What size tires are you going to use? That plays a big factor in it too.

5) I have a friend who built a similar buggy to mine. He will tell you that mine looks a lot nicer and has a lot nicer parts. His total cost was probably around $3000. He has a GM Quad 4 motor with the same transaxle as I have. We both have Auto's. The auto is so much nicer in the hardcore stuff. (oh, another plus with the GM being backwards is that the auto doesn't starve for fluid on steep climbs. If you put it forwards it runs the pan empty on steep climbs and then you can't go!)

6) There does not need to be a bunch of complex bends. Mine is fairly complex and over built, but I tend to bump into things and roll over often.

Hope this helps!
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  #3  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:57 PM
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johny5 johny5 is offline
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Welcome , I can try and offer what I have figured out with my Honda build. The reverse rotation D and I think B series will allow you to not have to flip the axels. Although the rear diff would need to be off set. I found the fj40-60 diffs worked well for me (and there cheap )
They are also easy to flip if you have a different engine transaxle set up.

One engine I would consider is a vw vr6 , it looks like the transaxle flanges would work well for the drive shafts.

I'm also going to be running 105 wheel base and rear steer. Bending tube is really not that hard and I rarely mess up tube ( the messed up pieces can usually used later in the build ) My goal is also to have fun with my build trying things I have not tried before.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:52 AM
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350 Vortec 350 Vortec is offline
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Cant add much really except to suggest that the reverse rotation motor thing is probably untrue,i presume the motor runs same as any other and it's more a case of the trans being positioned differently??ie on opposite end of motor???

The VR6/trans unit is used a lot in Europe,compact and powerful,most of the spider design's seem to use them,mostly up front though..over here the rear mounted motor just cant compete with front in serious offroad
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:20 PM
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smw smw is offline
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The older Honda 4 bangers are all reverse rotation, the only other engine I know of that is ccw rotation is the flat 6 out of the corvair. The new Honda k series are cw rotation like any other engine. What will blow your mind is the s2000 F20c/F22c the engine rotates cw and the cams are ccw. There are the D,B,F and H series not to confuse the s2000 F series and the older F series. This reverse rotation Honda engines allow the engine to be in the rear with the trans closer to center near the occupant's. The rear driveshaft length and angle benefit from this. If it were me I'd use the F22 out of a mid 90s model accord 2.2ltr sohc if memory serve me right it has the highest torque output.


Hope this helps.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:49 PM
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350 Vortec 350 Vortec is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
The older Honda 4 bangers are all reverse rotation, the only other engine I know of that is ccw rotation is the flat 6 out of the corvair. The new Honda k series are cw rotation like any other engine. What will blow your mind is the s2000 F20c/F22c the engine rotates cw and the cams are ccw. There are the D,B,F and H series not to confuse the s2000 F series and the older F series. This reverse rotation Honda engines allow the engine to be in the rear with the trans closer to center near the occupant's. The rear driveshaft length and angle benefit from this. If it were me I'd use the F22 out of a mid 90s model accord 2.2ltr sohc if memory serve me right it has the highest torque output.


Hope this helps.
OK so they have reverse rotation but still the only reason they are advantageous in a buggy is as i see it surely because trans is on opposite to norm side..does a car with reverse rotation engine reverse everywhere-no,regardless of engine rotation the final drives all turn the same way so to say reverse rotation is key is misleading .. surely the key is the transaxle position on the engine

Last edited by 350 Vortec; 11-19-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:03 PM
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smw smw is offline
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Correct the only advantage is the fact that the trans is on the other side of the engine. Any setup will work just have to fab around it.
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:00 PM
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BeefaloBart BeefaloBart is offline
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Good Info from all. I would prefer to use a standard axle drop vs making a custom axle where new shafts would have to be custom as well. I like the idea of starting with the 30/35 combo and considered a 30 for the rear so it would have rear steer and seems to be a touch more stout than the 35.

If using a Dana 30 for a rear axle this would have to be flipped so the rotation would be correct or am I mistaken. In doing the 30, the gears would be exact as the front and probably stay 4.10 at first then later 4.56 or 4.88 Im not familiar with much of the Honda other than as an example the CRX came with a 4.10 final drive ratio. I assume many of the Honda cars came with the ration at that level.

F22 if not mistaken was used in Prelude and maybe accords. I know my 2nd gen prelude had a 1.8L with dual carbs (1985) I would like to minimize wiring and computers, but if I have to run a computer I would like one that is OBD-II for the ability to program it. This would or could be done via a Raspberry Pi installed onboard.

Bending tube I have done before, just I know I would end up making patchwork out of the tubes to make it all work. However where may I find some free designs for this style buggy for rock crawling using 4cyl transverse engines.
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:15 PM
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raceplayhavefun raceplayhavefun is offline
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Beefalo, a couple of quick clarifications and comments: Personally I don't like the idea of rear steer as it adds weight, complexity, and steering axleshafts are weaker than straight axleshafts. If you do decide to use a 30 as a rear steer axle, the simple act of pointing the pinion forward makes it turn the correct direction. However the offset may be wrong for you. I know a lot of people get confused with turning an axle vs flipping an axle. If you turn it from front to rear, it still is going the "correct" direction. If you FLIP it upside down, you have now reversed the rotation. In my buggy, everything worked best with the motor backwards. This requires the axles to be flipped to make "D" propel it forwards.

I chose the GM motor in part due to the fact that I know nothing about the Honda/Acura motors, and in part that the GM stuff seems cheaper, but that may be due to my lack of knowledge of the Honda parts. The GM transaxles are all in the 3.73 - 4.10 range as well. With an auto and 4.10's in the Diffs it gives a nice crawl ratio with 40" tires.
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