'70 Nova LSX swap LY6/TH400 - Page 4

entropy · #61 01-03-2011, 07:59 PM

It all looks way to dry...
Machine? Because it looks like you may have been over its rigidity.
Quill all the way up?
Mostly I think you need oil/wax and WAY more RPM
RPM calculates at 3880-RPM in 6061 T6 with a 1/2EM

TheBandit · #62 01-04-2011, 12:08 AM

Wow how did I get the rpm so far off? I must have been looking at the wrong row on the chart. Now that you mention it that did seem really slow for Al. Ill crank it up next time and use some oil. The quil was fully retracted and locked in position. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll probably do the drivers side this weekend, infant permitting. :)

TheBandit · #63 01-07-2011, 04:31 PM

For documentation's sake, here is an email response I got from Kurt from Autokraft when asking what dipstick to use and what he thought of my 1/4" forward plan.

Quote:

We recommend using an f-body dipstick and tube (98-02 camaro/firebird)

I cant see why you couldn't move the engine 1/4in. There should be enough clearance for that.

When we first starting selling the conversion pans, we found that most aftermarket tie rods had the zerk fitting on the end of the tie rod which in some cases hit the corner of the pan. The factory original ones had the zerk on the face of the tie rod so clearance was not an issue. We just notched the pan on the corner of the sump so no matter what it clears with no issues. We changed that about 4-5 years ago

I'm happy to hear his thoughts on the 1/4" forward. Hopefully he's right!

entropy · #64 01-15-2011, 02:09 AM

AC Solution.
You could build this for maybe $50, sure would solve some problems.
http://www.kwikperf.com/lsx_ac.html

TheBandit · #65 03-13-2011, 10:17 PM

I've seen the Kwik setup and while it isn't a bad way to go, I am still gung-ho about the low-mount accessories. There's no practical or logical reason for it, but it's what I want to do, so hopefully it works out.

The last couple of months have been a blur. It's amazing how having a kid changes your life. Free time is rare!

Here and there I've plugged away at the car. First, here are some spacers I cut from 1/2" aluminum using a hole saw to add to the solid bushings supplied by Global West. Novas of my generation (I believe from '68 to '72) need this spacer for proper frame and body alignment. Somewhere around '73 they went to a thicker rubber bushings and elminated this spacer, but if you are going to an aftermarket solid body bushing normally meant for a Camaro, you will need to add a spacer at the firewall mounts for '68-'74 Novas. You'll also need 1/2" longer bolts than what is supplied with the aftermarket bushings, unless you are reusing your originals.

With things down to the frame, I decided now would be a good time to address some of the suspension shortcomings that I was fighting at autocross last year. First, it's well documented that the camber curve for 1st gen Camaros and 3rd gen Novas like mine is a bit backwards. There are a host of ways to correct this and I decided to do the rather popular Guldstrand mod. This moves the upper control arm frame mounting points down a bit to primarily increase negative camber on compression ("camber gain"). If you want to learn more about this, do some searching because it's been discussed in detail elsewhere.

I started by pulling apart the suspension. I supported the weight of the car with a jack near the balljoint on the lower control arm, then loosened the upper balljoint, used a seperator to get it to "pop" while the nut was still on the end, then simply loosened the nut until it came loose. There was a little bit of spring energy left when the nut came off, but not much - the car moved up only a little bit. Now I realize this is not safe to do on all vehicles, but in this case it worked out fine. I had left the shock in place just in case things decided to go flying anywhere. Finally I put a jackstand under the front of the frame and lowered the jack to release the spring.

I've decided to do the G-mod the "hard way". Rather than drilling a second set of mounting holes lower on the UCA towers, I am going to cut the towers off at their base and weld them in at the new location. First I used a c-clamp and a socket to remove the studs for the upper control arms.

I then cut a few pieces from 2-1/2 x 1/8 bar

I bought the actual template directly from Dick Guldstrand's shop. You can download copies of it off the net, but I like to support the people that develop these things and this way I was assured I had the right dimensions. Here I use a punch to transfer the hole locations to a piece of flat.

After drilling the four 7/16" holes, I trimmed the lower portion of the plate to follow the flat contoured section of the UCA tower. The new location for the lower hole is very close to a curved potion of the tower, so I ground it at an angle on the backside so the plate would sit flat.

Here is the relocation plate now bolted on both sides

Next I made plates that bolt to the motor frame stand locations.

TheBandit · #66 03-13-2011, 10:18 PM

Then I cut a crossbar from 1.5x.120 square tube that I had laying around and two downtubes with 45s at the end to support it. I welded everything up and here's what I have:

I considered adding more tube to ensure things lined up, but after thinking about it I figured more tube would just be more welding and more possibility for distortion. This simple design was easy to build and the holes lined up just fine after removing the bolts (proof!)

Next I'll have to cut the towers off and carefully trim them until they can mate up with the lower holes on the jig. That's all for now!

entropy · #67 03-13-2011, 11:42 PM

Brings back memoriez.

On my first street roadracer I had access to the chrome'rz and so I did and then baked it all overnight. I then painted everything else gloss white an baked that. I seem to remember being in trouble more for the second batch. Flat freaked out the Tech guy, I had people looking under that primer'd up turd for the longest time! When I did the 68 GS I painted everything GM Engine Light Blue...

You will really like the handling change!

What are you going to run for bars?
Going soft springs and big bars? (My preferred)
Wheels are you going to go for 0-scrub and if you are running a short stiff sidewall are you going to dial back the Ackerman?

E

TheBandit · #68 03-14-2011, 11:02 AM

Good questions e.

Up front I'm going from an 11/16" OD solid bar to a 1-1/8" OD hollow bar (about 6x stiffer). The rear currently has no bar - I'm going to see how things work out before I decide on the back. Assuming I put one in, I will likely go to an ajustable bar in the back so I can tweak to balance things out. The front just doesn't have much room for that. I'm undecided on springs still, but leaning toward 650lb/in (stock is around 325) which works out to a wheel rate of about 325lb/in (stock 173). Assuming a sprung weight of about 800lb (hard to say), this works out to a ride frequency right around 2.0Hz (stock 1.4Hz). I haven't calculated the roll stiffness (springs + swaybar) yet. These selections are based in part on what others have used on these cars. I need to figure out what I want to do for the rear, but to be honest, I probably wont make any changes there until the car is driveable again.

At this point, I don't plan on steering changes. I haven't measured any of the geometry, so I'd be hard pressed to know what changes would be appropriate. Wheels and tires are going to stay the same too; 215/60R15s up front and 275/60R15s rear - definitely not ideal, but it's what I have for now. I'm already spending over budget on just the engine swap, so it's tough to convince finance (Mrs. TheBandit) that I need these things. My hope is to increase wheel size and tire width later in conjunction with brake upgrades.

The car has been down for almost a year now. I wasn't planning on taking it this far, but you know how things tend to snowball.

entropy · #69 03-14-2011, 06:07 PM

I believe that the 78 TA had the 1 1/8" front bar and a 7/8 rear bar... Factory.
Bolts on

TheBandit · #70 03-15-2011, 11:11 AM

Last night I unbolted the motor mount plates and observed a definite movement of the UCA hole locations. So I removed the jig and then reinstalled it by just bolting it at the motor mounts (no bolts at the UCA towers). Doing this, the UCA hole locations fell right back into place. There is definitely some stress left in the jig from welding, but having it bolted down at the motor mounts puts it in the correct position. I think I am good to go - what do you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

I believe that the 78 TA had the 1 1/8" front bar and a 7/8 rear bar... Factory.
Bolts on

'78 TA may have been designed with softer springs, had a narrower bar, had longer end links on the bar, or the roll center may have been in further from the CG or or or... you can't compare bar diameters directly. *EDIT* Looking at this site the TA sway bar end links appear longer than a Nova/Camaro bar like this.

Here is some good reading: http://books.google.com/books?id=cr4...page&q&f=false

entropy · #71 03-15-2011, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBandit

Last night I unbolted the motor mount plates and observed a definite movement of the UCA hole locations. So I removed the jig and then reinstalled it by just bolting it at the motor mounts (no bolts at the UCA towers). Doing this, the UCA hole locations fell right back into place. There is definitely some stress left in the jig from welding, but having it bolted down at the motor mounts puts it in the correct position. I think I am good to go - what do you think?

'78 TA may have been designed with softer springs, had a narrower bar, had longer end links on the bar, or the roll center may have been in further from the CG or or or... you can't compare bar diameters directly.

Here is some good reading: http://books.google.com/books?id=cr4...page&q&f=false

No, you are correct; I was simply saying that the bar bolts on if mounted in Delrin/solid links it makes a simple and rather effective low cost (well ok you might not find one anymore) mod, and made the Nova/Apollo into a platform that suddenly would turn

BTW, I have the first edition of that book... bought it new

TheBandit · #72 03-15-2011, 12:03 PM

I remember when I bought my Nova, parts weren't too hard to find for these old cars, but it's getting very difficult nowadays to find original pieces. On the other side of the coin, the aftermarket has stepped up big and there is a lot more repop and performance stuff available than there used to be, I just worry about the quality at times.

I love reading the older HP & SA Design books from folks like Smokey Yunick, Herb Adams, and Rob Fornier and the likes. There is so much to be learned from these guy's experiences. I wonder sometimes if people are capable of thinking outside of the box anymore.

What do you think about the jig shift?

entropy · #73 03-15-2011, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBandit

I remember when I bought my Nova, parts weren't too hard to find for these old cars, but it's getting very difficult nowadays to find original pieces. On the other side of the coin, the aftermarket has stepped up big and there is a lot more repop and performance stuff available than there used to be, I just worry about the quality at times.

I love reading the older HP & SA Design books from folks like Smokey Yunick, Herb Adams, and Rob Fornier and the likes. There is so much to be learned from these guy's experiences. I wonder sometimes if people are capable of thinking outside of the box anymore.

What do you think about the jig shift?

I'm thinking... I would not worry to much about it because UCA mount is adjustable, so you should be able to compensate for a little shift... That and it will shift again when the engine goes in, and again when the tires have full weight on them.

TheBandit · #74 04-18-2011, 01:32 PM

After the above discussion, I went back to check the jig for shift and found that when the motor mount plates were bolted down, the holes lined up perfectly at the UCA towers. So despite there being some movement in the jig when unbolted, it seems to match up fine when bolted down. I am confident the jig will work great.

Work continues on the Guldstrand mod. The next step was marking where to cut.

Then I used the angle grinder and cutoff wheel to cut off the tower.

It took quite a bit of cutting and grinding to get the remnants of bracketry off the frame. Once the frame was flat and clean of the old stuff, I went to work carefully trimming the tower until the holes lined up with my jig.

I have one problem area in near the back of the tower in this photo. You can see in that area there is a gap with the frame. The crossmember has a piece that overlaps and is welded onto the frame channels. I cut so it would line up with the top of that surface. Unfortunately it didn't extend far enough so that after the trimming, the UCA tower no longer intersects it. The gap is about 1/8" and I will probably fill it with weld before tacking the tower back in for final welding.

My next problem will be trimming and reforming the shock tower in a way that doesn't move the upper shock mounting position. That will be fun!

TheBandit · #75 05-06-2011, 12:28 AM

Got a little time to work on this. The next job was reforming the shock mounting plate area to meet up with the trimmed UCA tower.

I started by making a pie-cut here:

Next, I inserted a long piece of 1-1/2" square tube under the shock mount hole as a lever so I could prevent it from bending down. Then I used a large adjustable wrench that I moved along the edge and little by little bent the metal downward until it matched up with the edge of the control arm tower, all the while holding the shock mount hole area up using that square tube. This worked well and I was able to keep the bend roughly at the edge of the adjustable wrench without the shock mount hole moving anywhere.

I had to also trim the edge that met with the UCA tower using a cutoff wheel. I trimmed a bit much and my pie cut was a little larger than necessary, but I think the gaps are manageable. It should work out great once it's welded up.

TheBandit · #76 05-13-2011, 10:50 AM

After finishing up all the trim & prep work, it was time to weld things up. I started by installing the jig and bolting everything in solid.

Next I tacked everything in place - four corners betwen the tower and frame and two tacks between the shock mount and tower. Then I got busy welding in approximatelly four inch sections welding the ends first, then the center. I am embarrased of the welds here: they're a bit on the cold side and my starts & stops are obvious. I haven't welded in a long time and this is the first project I've really put my new MM180 to work. Hopefully these will get the job done.

The pie cut was welded and ground flat followed by some flapper wheel to blend everything. I then cleaned up the edge with a cutoff wheel. You'd hardly know it was cut at all.

Next I bolted on the upper control arm and discovered this common area for interferance.

To gain the needed clearance, I notched and ground a small portion of the arm until it would bolt on and move through the expected range of travel. Here you can see the notched passenger arm next to the yet unmodified driver arm.

That's all for now. The other side should go faster now that I think I know what I'm doing.