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patooyee
03-21-2008, 06:39 AM
This is the first time I've done this so I'm sorry for the newb question.

I just received my static phase converter and hooked it up according to the instructions. However the lathe will sometimes start, most of the time won't. When it does start it spins really slow and the servo-shift oscillates so weakly that it won't even shift gears. The converter sometimes flickers and buzzes, especially when I bump it a little bit. The first thign that I can think of is that I may not have hooked the 3-phase outputs up correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't terminal B on the top of the converter only have power when starting the motor? That would indicate to me that the wire coming from that terminal needed to go somewhere specific in the lathe. I didn't think about that hooking it up. At the time I was just thinking power is power and the lathe didn't care which of the three terminals it got voltage from. I could be totally off though. My lathe is a 15" Leblond Servoshift and the instrcutions for the converter are here: http://www.phase-a-matic.com/PDF/SIS-2008.pdf (I'm using method #1.)

Thanks in advance for any help.

J. J.

TitanFab
03-21-2008, 07:39 AM
Go to http://practicalmachinist.com
You can find everything out there
Is your phase converter large enough.

patooyee
03-21-2008, 09:51 AM
I posted this there also and so far all I've got is that phase converters suck and they're not worth running and search. I did actually search and came up with nothing over there. That's when I asked here.

Phase converter is rated at 4 - 8 hp and my motor is 7.5 hp. I consulted the manufacturer before I bought also.

J. J.

zancat
03-21-2008, 10:06 AM
Have you checked the output for proper voltage? Make sure all three leads have proper voltage (be careful).

Also machine might be able to run on more than one voltage. Make sure the machine is setup to match your output.

X2 on the size / capacity question. Any particular reason you went with a static converter?

My buddy ran an Okuma CNC on a rotary phase converter for years with no problems. You should be able to use your machine with a quality converter no sweat.

Don't get electrocuted. ;-)

Zancat

entropy
03-21-2008, 11:06 AM
This is the first time I've done this so I'm sorry for the newb question.

I just received my static phase converter and hooked it up according to the instructions. However the lathe will sometimes start, most of the time won't. When it does start it spins really slow and the servo-shift oscillates so weakly that it won't even shift gears. The converter sometimes flickers and buzzes, especially when I bump it a little bit. The first thign that I can think of is that I may not have hooked the 3-phase outputs up correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't terminal B on the top of the converter only have power when starting the motor? That would indicate to me that the wire coming from that terminal needed to go somewhere specific in the lathe. I didn't think about that hooking it up. At the time I was just thinking power is power and the lathe didn't care which of the three terminals it got voltage from. I could be totally off though. My lathe is a 15" Leblond Servoshift and the instrcutions for the converter are here: http://www.phase-a-matic.com/PDF/SIS-2008.pdf (I'm using method #1.)

Thanks in advance for any help.

J. J.

The lathe cares what goes where.
Example hook it up wrong and the Lathe will run backwards. Should be a diagram on the motor, sometimes inside the cover.
Buzzing and flashing are not good, and the cause should be corrected fast or the converter will be junk.
On these old lathes...
Did you check the motor ID plate to be sure that it is a sub-8HP unit? Note: the ID on the motor not the ID on the Lathe. (Not insinuating you cant read, I've been tripped by that one.)

patooyee
03-21-2008, 12:27 PM
Yes, I did double-check the motor on the lathe. It says 7.5 peak hp and 5 continuous.

And after speaking to the tech support line for Phase-A-Matic I do think I have the leads hooked up wrong. Or more specifically, the B-terminal leads. I'm going to go back to the shop later today and look into it further.

J. J.

bigblock72
03-21-2008, 02:24 PM
I would send the static phase converter back and buy/build a rotory phase converter. Static phase converters only make three phase to get the motor running then switch to single phase which is why you lose a 1/3 of your rated power. Odds are your converter is too small for your relatively large motor. A rotory converter will take care of all your problems and also give you fairly well balanced three phase power (if it's a good one) all of the time for full output of your motor(s).

Rock4XFab
03-21-2008, 04:05 PM
First of in theory the Lathe does not care how it is hooked up with 3 phace the only difference, is it will either spin clockwise or couter clockwise. For all gear head lathes they recommend minimum 2 tp 3 times times higher convertor then what the lathe motor is rated at. My 7.5 hp lather would not start until I put a 25 hp RFC on it. Also Static convertors do Suck I built my Rotory phase for alot less then the off the shelf units. But then again I have an electrical background and can source parts cheap. My guess is you are going to have issues with it until you get a big PC or get a large RFC.
Belt driven equipment (ie) Mills Grinders drill press's etc Will start on minimum PC input but gear head and hard start units like lathes need alot more. There is also a theory And I have seen this done and Am not exactly sure why it works but it does. A local shop runs all there eqipment off of a small Rotory phase convertor, They start all of the mills 1 at a time and the last thing is the lathes. It will start because the other machines induce a more stable 3rd leg.

patooyee
03-21-2008, 06:57 PM
First of in theory the Lathe does not care how it is hooked up with 3 phace the only difference, is it will either spin clockwise or couter clockwise. For all gear head lathes they recommend minimum 2 tp 3 times times higher convertor then what the lathe motor is rated at. My 7.5 hp lather would not start until I put a 25 hp RFC on it. Also Static convertors do Suck I built my Rotory phase for alot less then the off the shelf units. But then again I have an electrical background and can source parts cheap. My guess is you are going to have issues with it until you get a big PC or get a large RFC.
Belt driven equipment (ie) Mills Grinders drill press's etc Will start on minimum PC input but gear head and hard start units like lathes need alot more. There is also a theory And I have seen this done and Am not exactly sure why it works but it does. A local shop runs all there eqipment off of a small Rotory phase convertor, They start all of the mills 1 at a time and the last thing is the lathes. It will start because the other machines induce a more stable 3rd leg.
I've now spoken to several authorities on sizing and they all unanimously agree that oversizing on a STATIC converter is pointless but on a ROTARY is smart. In fact, oversizing on a static can work against the effectiveness.

Still working on it. I'm pretty sure at this point that I have it hooked up wrong.

I would like to build a rotary converter, but the phase converter for something 50% more powerful is $100 more than I've spent and I don't have electrical motor connections and the prices I've seen on used motors that are 50% more powerful than my lathe's motor are in the hundreds. Add in all the materials I would need to do it and I could easily have $1000 into a converter that does way more than I would ever need it to do using old parts that could go bad any moment and have to be re-purchased. And then finding the same used motor that I built everything around again would be impossible and I would have to rebuild everything again. That vs. $190 into a new static converter that SHOULD work if I can figure it out and will do everything and more that I ever need it to do. There's not even a question to me ...

J. J.

Tig Artist
03-22-2008, 03:10 AM
I have successfully ran a static converter on my mill for 12 years. they do work but they diminish the output of the driven motor by 1/3.

I am running the same converter that you are using.

The very first thing you GOT to do is QUIT TRYING IT!! you can toast these things so easy that you can't beleive it !!!!!!!!!!! listen to me CALL them and have them talk you through your hook up!!!!!!! You got something hooked up wrong and the warranty will be useless! open up all your J box's and call them they will help you through it if it aint toast already.


PS if you ever run across a 3 phase 5 hp motor- snag it up because that is all you need to have true 3 phase power in your shop, when used in conjunction with your static converter.

patooyee
03-22-2008, 10:32 AM
I've called them several times on the issue and they can't figure it out just because they don't know my particular lathe. I'm going to wait until Mon. and call Leblond. They've been helpful in the past.

J. J.

jeep534
03-26-2008, 09:38 PM
I've called them several times on the issue and they can't figure it out just because they don't know my particular lathe. I'm going to wait until Mon. and call Leblond. They've been helpful in the past.

J. J.

J.J
I will try to be gentle. I do frequent the other board and those people are essentially correct. what you are trying to do is essentially not going to work. I have a Cincinnati Hydrashift lathe with a 5 horsepower motor and I am running it and all the other 3 phase equipment in my shop off of one rotary converter. shop photo's posted here http://jeep534.smugmug.com/gallery/1138258_gJkJY#109117245

I am running a 15 horsepower ideler (what I found when was looking for a ideler) and a pannel from anderson converters. the 15 horse motor I scrounged and the pannel cost me I think 260 dollars. which was less than i could get the components to build it. I built my frst rotary converter with a 5 hp ideler and the active components (capicators relays ect) cost me a hundred dollars. I traded it to my buddy to use to run his smaller lathe

so you need to find a 10 HP 3 phase motor and check out the anderson converter pannels http://www.adersonconverters.com
the 10 hp rotary is 599 including the ideler motor plus shipping or just the pannel is 289.........

I have no connection to these people I am just a satisfed customer i have been running this pannel since 2005

I hope this helps
Happy Hunting
archie =) =) =)

P.S. If possible put the idler motor outside as they make a racket when they are running... panel inside motor outside. 9it wasn't possible in my current situation.

entropy
03-26-2008, 10:29 PM
http://www.andersonconverters.com/

That'z all:biggrin:

jackalope
03-27-2008, 04:25 PM
Another thing in addition to what has been stated, is check to make sure your imput coltage is 220-240 and not 208. I have heard this will change things considerably when hooking up a PC.

Rock4x,

Your RPC you built is still going strong!!! Powers everything in the shop! A few mills/lathes/saws/grinders/etc. I think he should hire you to build one ;-)
--Grant

Rock4XFab
03-27-2008, 05:09 PM
Another thing in addition to what has been stated, is check to make sure your imput coltage is 220-240 and not 208. I have heard this will change things considerably when hooking up a PC.

Rock4x,

Your RPC you built is still going strong!!! Powers everything in the shop! A few mills/lathes/saws/grinders/etc. I think he should hire you to build one ;-)
--Grant

Grant Do you have any pics of that monster I built??

louis
03-27-2008, 07:39 PM
One thing to check is to make sure that the incoming power lines go to the heaters on the magnetic starter and the generated lines don't. Thanks could cause issues with the breaker blowing.

Mopars 4 Life
03-27-2008, 07:43 PM
patooyee,what did ya find out? Have you got it up and runnin?

Rock4XFab
03-28-2008, 03:38 AM
According to there web site

Using the PHASE-A-MATIC™ Static Converter only will produce approximately 2/3 normal HP.* This method is inexpensive, the most popular, provides excellent results on most machines tools and numerous other uses. Motor speed is not changed. Most two-speed motors, power feeds, coolant pumps, etc., will operate normally. Motor will instant reverse. There is nothing to change. All switch gear will work normally

To Start a gear head lathe, YOU need More then just 2/3. Yo uare taxing the convertor and this is why you cant get it to run. The PDF talks about the flickering lights on start. and that it is undersized. Also you mention you convertor is rated 4-8.. Is it the HD Unit there web site states Lathes need the HD.

patooyee
03-28-2008, 11:51 AM
Yes, I have the HD unit.

I haven't got it running yet. I have been interrupted by a vacation that I had planned. But I think the root of my problems are that, with the static converter, you have to start the largest motor first. Since my lathe doesn't have a clutch that means the spindle motor starts and stops to stop motion to the spindle. So when I stop it and then shift, the much smaller shifter motor starts up using the initial current from the converter, leaving the spindle motor nothing to start with. I think that is why I can start the lathe and make it run but not after I shift it. That's my best guess.

I found a local electric motor supplier that has a used 3-phase 7.5 hp motor that I am going to get once I get back in town. I know that ideally I want something 50% more powerful than what I am running, but to be honest I just don't want to put that much money into it. The reason I went with the static converter to begin with is because I don't plan on doing heavy, every-day machine work thus 2/3 hp on a 7hp motor should be plenty for my use. Now that that isn't going to work I just can't justify the expense of another $300 converter and probably another $300 motor just to get more hp than I'll ever need.

J. J.

jeep534
03-28-2008, 12:37 PM
Yes, I have the HD unit.

I haven't got it running yet. I have been interrupted by a vacation that I had planned. But I think the root of my problems are that, with the static converter, you have to start the largest motor first. Since my lathe doesn't have a clutch that means the spindle motor starts and stops to stop motion to the spindle. So when I stop it and then shift, the much smaller shifter motor starts up using the initial current from the converter, leaving the spindle motor nothing to start with. I think that is why I can start the lathe and make it run but not after I shift it. That's my best guess.

I found a local electric motor supplier that has a used 3-phase 7.5 hp motor that I am going to get once I get back in town. I know that ideally I want something 50% more powerful than what I am running, but to be honest I just don't want to put that much money into it. The reason I went with the static converter to begin with is because I don't plan on doing heavy, every-day machine work thus 2/3 hp on a 7hp motor should be plenty for my use. Now that that isn't going to work I just can't justify the expense of another $300 converter and probably another $300 motor just to get more hp than I'll ever need.

J. J.

J.J. that is really not the issue. the lathe is made to run with a 5 hp motor. and not with 2/3 of 5 hp. but the real root issue is thet your machine has to stop the motor every time you stop the spindle. i don't believe that you are going to be happy with the 7.5 hp motor as a ideler. what I would suggest is to hook the static converter to the 7.5 motor then hook the lathe across the 7.5 motor and static converter. start the 7.5 with the static converter and then start the lathe and see how that works.....

in the end you might want to go to a VFD like my friend has. really expensive but it is smooth as a baby's XXX

If I can Help in any way pm me.....
Happy Hunting
archie =) =) =)

patooyee
04-05-2008, 12:56 PM
Not that this is earth-shattering news or anything but I was finally able to get my lathe hooked up and working OK. I had to figure it out for myself via some long discussions with Phase-a-Matic's tech department, but basically here why using just a phase converter wouldn't have worked on my lathe.

My lathe actually has 3 3-phase motors on it. The spindle motor, the hydraulic motor, and the shift motor. The shift motor rocks the spindle back and forth gently and slowly when shifting so that the gears mesh. The hydraulic motor rpumps fluid to the hydraulic servo which moves the shift forks while the spdinle is being rocked by the shif tmotor. Obviously,. the main motor, the spindle motor, turns the spindle. The shift and hydraulic are VERY small compared to the spindle motor.

The instructions for my phase converter say that the largest motor in the system must be started first every time. This is so that the larger motor can then start any smaller motors. If a smaller motor is started first it does not have enough juice to start the larger motor and if the smaller motors are run then shut down and the larger motor started up again the phase converter thinks that it is being over-drawn and shuts down.

My problem was that the phase converter would start and run the spindle motor fine. But since my lathe has no clutch the spindle motor starts and stops when the spindle does. Thus, to shift what was happening was the spindle motor would shut down, the shift and hydro motors would run and then shut off, and then the phase converter would have no juice left to start the spindle motor again.

This could have been solved by wiring in some small capacitors for the motors, but thanks to jeep534's help, I decided to just bite the bullet and build a rotory converter. I used my 8hp converter to start and run a 10hp idler motor and everything works great now!

So thank you everyone for the help.

J. J.

Tig Artist
04-06-2008, 12:41 AM
jj good shit there. i been running the same setup for 15 years with no problems at all.:beer: